Naming The False Self

The “real you” might not be the most honest version of you, it might be the best-edited one. We’re in the middle of our authenticity series, and this conversation goes straight at a hard question: what happens when we keep hiding, performing, and managing impressions for long enough that it starts to feel normal?

We dig into what we call the false self: a carefully constructed identity we develop to survive life apart from trusting God. Using Ephesians 4:22–23, we talk about the old self we’re invited to put off and the new self we’re invited to put on. Along the way, we lean on the Genesis image of fig leaves to describe the “coverings” we sew together to feel safe, loved, significant, or in control and how we can eventually lose touch with what’s underneath.

Then we name the telltale signs of the false self in everyday life: fear, protectiveness, possessiveness, manipulation, and the subtle ways we turn people into tools rather than treating them as a “Thou.” We also talk about how self-promotion gets rewarded in our culture, how indulgence becomes a quick fix for the soul, and how comparison fuels an us-versus-them mindset that breeds judgment instead of love.

We close with a concrete practice: slow down, reflect without shame, and name the fig leaves you’re wearing so you can start taking them off. Subscribe for the next conversation, share this with a friend who’s tired of performing, and if the show helps you, leave a review so more people can find it.

Transcript

Welcome And Authenticity Series

Josiah 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. Right now, we're in a series on authenticity. While authenticity is enjoying a moment in the cultural spotlight right now, its value is nothing new. It's deeply rooted in the biblical vision of being fully known and fully loved. As human beings created in the image of God, we're wired for relationship. We were made to know and to be known. And yet, so often we hide, we perform, and we manage impressions by burying our weaknesses. Slowly, we begin living divided and inauthentic lives. The truth is, real relationships are impossible while hiding. Genuine connection requires courage, the willingness to show up vulnerably and authentically. So in this series, we're exploring what authenticity is, what gets in the way of it, and what it takes to pursue it. And our relationship with God, with ourselves, and others. And today we're going to dive deeper into the subject of authenticity by exploring what we call the false self. So let's get into it.

Memorial Day Banter And Gardens

Katie 1:24

Welcome everyone. My name is Katie.

Josiah 1:26

I'm Josiah, and I'm Mac.

Katie 1:28

So as of the time we're recording this episode, we are right on the heels of Memorial Day weekend. Are we on the heels of Memorial Day weekend? That doesn't sound right. Okay. Yeah, that feels like something you say when something just happened. We are um On the toes.

Mac 1:42

We're on the toes of Memorial Day weekend. On the nose?

Katie 1:45

Memorial Day weekend is right around the corner. Yeah. I like that. We're on the precipice of Memorial Day weekend. And one of our, we don't have a lot on our agenda this weekend, but one of the things is going to be planting a garden. Um so that's something we do every year. And when I I say we, I mean my husband, Alex, and my kids. Um I'm not a gardener, but I do appreciate the fruits of gardening. I will um or vegetables. I will fully engage the or vegetables. Um I will fully engage the harvesting stage.

Josiah 2:16

Like I'll go pick I'll go pick stuff, but I don't want to be a good one.

Katie 2:18

I'll go pick stuff, but I'm not really the maintainer. Um but yeah, I know a lot of people are are uh starting gardens. Memorial Day weekend is in my mind is always kind of like the weekend, like, hey, that's the time you have to get it in the ground. You know, we planted the seeds maybe a month or so ago and you gotta get in the ground. Uh are you guys you guys gardeners? Do you have anything you're planting?

Mac 2:36

We are not. Um, but something devastating happened to me yesterday. Oh no. Oh no. Yeah. Um, about three weeks ago, Josie was at Costco and sent me a picture of a couple apple trees and was like, do you think we should get these? I'm like, sure. So she brings these apple trees home. They're pretty small. Uh what do they call like a sapling, kind of a like, you know, maybe five feet tall. And we planted them in our backyard as kind of like along the perimeter of our yard uh to become a barrier. And I've been watering them. It's been going well. And then yesterday I uh went outside to let the dog out and it had snapped in half.

Katie 3:16

Oh no.

Mac 3:18

One of them. And in two different spots. And it's really it was really odd because it's like in different directions. So I'm like, okay, did the wind snap this? Why like what happened? Like the the brakes don't make sense. Yeah. You know what I mean? Do you have any? Yeah, it does feel that way. I don't have a good PI. Um, do you know of one?

Katie 3:41

I could probably find you one.

Mac 3:42

Yeah. It'd be good. I I'm wondering if I don't want to be overly suspicious of my neighbors, but it makes me wonder which one did this.

Katie 3:51

Have you made your boys angry lately?

Mac 3:53

No. No.

Katie 3:54

I'm kidding.

Josiah 3:55

I'm trying to think of what animals like a deer. Deer it could be. I I I'm pretty sure deer have lost all their antlers by now. Um but they do, you know, if they were losing if they're losing their antlers, they might be rubbing them off there. So I don't know, was there like scratch marks? No or anything like that. It was just kind of a clean snap. I mean, it's been windy, I will say, but but um maybe someone was like running in your backyard and they were leaning up against the tree to like stretch.

Mac 4:26

It's not hamstrings and it's not that kind of tree. It's not you would never know.

Katie 4:31

Anyway, so that was maybe you need a ring doorbell.

Mac 4:33

Disappointing. Yeah, and put it on the backyard.

Katie 4:36

Yeah.

Josiah 4:37

To answer your question, Katie, we do uh we don't have a garden, but we do uh a lot of flowers. So I shouldn't say a little, yeah. A lot for my standards. Um probably not for some. Uh but yeah, we just have lots of planters. We don't have a huge yard with a little more time. I love the idea of having a garden, but um not home a ton.

Katie 5:01

So it'd be tough. You know what I could get into this year would be microgreens. Do you guys eat microgreens?

Mac 5:08

Give me an example of a microgreen.

Katie 5:10

Um they're like little tiny plants, like this big. And they're like sprouts.

Mac 5:14

Oh, sprouts.

Katie 5:15

And they grow in like a big thing, but you can do all sorts of them. You can do like alfalfa sprouts, I think that counts as a microgreen. Little tiny broccoli, radish, like all these little things. But they're they grow in a big thing. And I there's a lady at the farmer's market, a cronic farmers market, that sells them. Um and you can go for six bucks. You can get a big box of microgreens. And um, I picked some up last weekend and I've been eating them all week, and they're so good.

Mac 5:38

Really? They're good.

Katie 5:39

They're so good. Huh. The onion ones are especially good on eggs. Oh, and you're talking about like like like green onions? They're not green onions. I don't I wish I could explain it better, you guys. I don't know. Maybe Google it. Onion microgreen. Huh.

Josiah 5:54

Okay.

Katie 5:55

Yep.

Josiah 5:55

I'm very curious now.

Mac 5:57

Well, speaking of microgreens.

Josiah 6:00

Um and one of these times when you do that, Mac, it's actually gonna be a good segue.

Mac 6:08

I know. I know. Uh I wish I could try one of these microgreens.

Katie 6:14

I can bring you some.

Mac 6:15

That'd be great.

Katie 6:16

Okay.

Mac 6:17

You giving your word to that? I am. Okay. You got it.

Defining Authenticity And The False Self

Josiah 6:20

Well, speaking of giving your word. Yeah, yeah.

Mac 6:22

Speaking of giving your word uh to things that are really important. We're on a seer we're in a series on authenticity, and big picture we're we're naming that authenticity is not just a Brene Brown thing. Uh, it's a Jesus thing. Jesus modeled authenticity for us. Authenticity is essential for our relationship with God, to our relationship with God, ourselves, and others. And we've spent some time talking about what authenticity is and isn't. In our last episode, we talked about what gets in the way of it, both in terms of internal pressures that act on us as well as how it shows up behaviorally, uh, namely by uh, you know, performing and protecting, hiding and hustling. Today, we want to talk about uh what happens when we consistently live uh inauthentically. And it's this we end up constructing and then living out of a false self. Living inauthentically leads to a false self, and and this is gonna be really important. By false self, it's not who we really are. It's not who we really are, it's a self-constructed identity apart from God, and then we live out of that. And so, uh, what I want to do is is just kind of maybe give a high-level description of a false self, and then I'm hoping we can spend time together today naming its key characteristics. And so, um, and the reason for this is it it's pretty simple. Paul says this in Ephesians 4, 22 and 23. He says, You were taught with regard to your former way of life to put off your old self. All right. So I'm using like false self, old self as synonymously, which is being corrupted by deceitful desires to be made new in the attitude of your minds and put on the new self created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. So Paul is saying, here's your old self self, it's your former way of life, it's driven by deceitful desires, and then there's this new self, which is actually like God and is marked by righteousness and holiness. So notice that we're supposed to take off the old and put on the new. And my friend Jim Harrington often reminds us we can't take off what we can't name. Right. So it's really important. It becomes like really important to our own transformation to be able to name the characteristics of our old self, our false self, if we're going to be able to like disrupt those behaviors and patterns and put on something different. Right. If we can't name that, that's just gonna continue to define who we are and how we how we show up. So here's a high-level description, just to kind of whet our appetites. Here's a high-level um description of the false self. And I'm borrowing here from Robert Mahullen Jr., who is no longer with us, but he was a professor at Asbury Seminary and just uh a big influence on me. He's he's a he was a phenomenal person. But he, if you were to grab a hold of a single line, he would say, our false self is our self-referenced way of being in the world. It's our self-referenced way of being in the world. And then he would fill that out by saying this the false self is the carefully constructed identity we've developed to survive life apart from trusting God. Okay. It's not who we truly are in Christ. Remember, authenticity is about living into God's design, not just being an authentic jerk, right? But it's who we learn to be in order to uh secure love, safety, control, or significance. Again, apart from God. Our false self is formed early through wounds, unmet needs, family systems. So think first formation, and cultural expectations, which I remember, Katie, you talked about last week. Like cultural expectations kind of act on us.

Josiah 10:28

Yep.

Mac 10:28

The false self organizes our behavior around self-protection and self-promotion. So think masks and walls, which we talked about last time, hiding and hustling. It can be impressive, it can look impressive, competent, even spiritual on the surface. But at its core, it's driven by fear and the need to manage outcomes. So the false self is that that self that emerges when we try to get legitimate needs met, like love and intimacy, acceptance, good things in an illegitimate way apart from God. And what ends up happening is it forms a protective substitute for our true self, the self God created us to be and the life God created us to experience in relationship with God. Love, freedom, joy, all like the fruit of the spirit. And over time, the false self solidifies and keeps us actually apart from God and our authentic selves and others. You're you you both are giving me uh like wrinkles on your forehead. Like your your eyebrows are up. Like, what do you what are you thinking? Well, I was just waiting until you were done. Okay. I feel we have a lot to say. Yeah, what does that stir in you?

Fig Leaves And Identity Confusion

Josiah 11:42

Yeah, I I like to picture the false self as as the fig leaves that that we that in the creation narrative, right? Adam and Eve sinned and they're hiding from God. Well, what do they do? They they have to cover themselves up. So who they are authentically is no longer sufficient. It's no longer visible, no longer sufficient. No, it's not it's not sufficient on its own, or it's threatening to their sense of self. So what do they have to do? They cover themselves up, they hide from God, and and you know, and their authentic selves are are no longer uh like no longer helpful in that way. So um I think it's a helpful visualization is the the false self is although we don't see it this way, is something we are continually putting on because we really don't fully trust our identity in God.

Mac 12:34

Yeah, and what maybe what that conjures up for me, Josiah, is going, okay, the false self, if we stick with that metaphor, they the false self is the fig leaves. You know, in kids' books, Adam's got like a fig leaf, maybe on the front and the back. Just one little one. Just one little one. Uh Eve has at least three, you know. Uh I'm thinking like we're covered with fig leaves. And what ends up happening is that those fig leaves are constructed to sort of project and hide, um, manage perception. But I think what the description I just read is getting at is we over time actually lose touch with what's underneath the fig leaves and come to believe that our true self are the fig leaves. Yes. And so we can't really get at our new self, which is underneath the fig leaves, unless we learn to name these fig leaves that we think is who we really are and take them off, you know, and then let what's real underneath that's rooted in God sort of emerge. And some people probably have way we all have not just one or three fig leaves, we have lots of them.

Josiah 14:02

Yeah.

Mac 14:03

You know, and we're in different places, I think, in sort of revealing some epidermis, if you will. That's a cool word. That means skin.

Josiah 14:14

Yeah, I I um I think that's really important to name. I think it's probably like we can't go too much further in this conversation without without naming that the problem at the basis of it all is that we identify as my real self is the fig leaves, is the things that I have sewn on to either project that I'm better than I am, hide the parts of me that aren't as good. And ultimately, if we can't recognize that, like I mean, it's so it it's kind of like self-awareness being sort of the basis of wanting to grow and become more like Jesus. Becoming more like Jesus, like name it, name this however you want, but becoming more like Jesus, it's gonna require naming what parts of you are the fig leaves that you've constructed, or is this the real me? And I think that's what this whole series is hopefully is is gonna get at.

Katie 15:13

Yeah. Uh yeah, I think I mentioned this last time, but you guys know I used to work in politics. And so when I hear that, which is a very authentic place to work.

Josiah 15:22

I've noticed that. I was gonna say the audience. I've noticed that.

Katie 15:24

No, I was gonna say when we're talking, my mind can't help but go to like the really obvious examples of like a politician who's presenting a persona that's like very different than who they actually are in order to like get votes or procure a certain outcome. But I'm excited in this conversation to dive into the more maybe subtle ways, you know, that we do this. I think like of course there are those extreme examples, but like you said, Mac, I think we all do this. And I think it's typically not um like overtly, I don't know, malicious or extreme or as nefarious as is what might come to mind.

Mac 16:01

Well, once you have eyes to see it, um I think it does, uh at least for me, um it carries uh nefarious implications. Like I did like the more you're able to name and see how it shows up, I think the more uh you begin to realize how destructive and hurtful it is.

Josiah 16:20

Yeah.

Mac 16:21

Right. Um I was, I mean, we'll get into the characteristics in a moment, but I was on a um, I was leading a group on uh what day was that? Monday, Tuesday, something like that. And there was a guy in this group, and we were talking about some of this stuff, and he was just narrating. I was the uh homecoming king, I was the lead uh running back for the football team. Uh my parents were pastors in our community, and we had a huge church. He's just talking about like how much attention he got and how everything was built around just like being good at stuff, competency. And it took a little while, but we kind of got down to the root of like, and it didn't give you permission to be a human being to maybe uh because one of the fig leaves was competency and you're rewarded for that. You're rewarded for being good at things, but notice how that leads to hiding all kinds of stuff because you've built your identity by being good at things. That's that's an example. And so it was just a beautiful moment where the entire staff team around him was able to go, you don't have to be the high school running back anymore. And you don't have to be the homecoming king. You can be a human being that isn't perfect and doesn't always have to perform.

Josiah 17:43

Yeah.

Mac 17:43

And now all of a sudden, there's space for a more authentic and quite frankly human form to develop and begin to grow. Does that make sense?

Josiah 17:52

Yeah.

Mac 17:53

So that was just one example. But um, in Robert Mahullen Jr.'s book, um, it's called The Deeper Journey. And I would, I would really recommend it to anybody who is serious about becoming more like Jesus. It's a phenomenal book. But he has um two chapters, and uh, one of the first ones is called The False Self. And in it, he lists eight characteristics of the false self. And I was hoping we could just, he's way smarter than me. So let's just like borrow from him and kind of walk through some of these to give people some imagination for their own false self. That makes sense?

Fear Protection And Control

Mac 18:29

Yeah.

Josiah 18:29

So the first characteristic we can dive into is that it's fearful. So the world feels unsafe. Um, there's threats everywhere, and especially like we talked about, uh, there's threats to our our identity. So we live braced, um, hidden and guarded, uh, ultimately withholding who we are from people. Um you know, I think of examples of uh how this shows up in like relationally. Um, it could be in a group of people not being not speaking up or speaking your mind, um, creating distance between you and others because them being too close. Um, obviously there's fear of threats. So ultimately the it's like this this false self, this fig leaf um specifically is fearful and sees the world as and people around you as a threat and it impacts how we show up.

Mac 19:25

Yeah, I mean the the false self is fundamentally a fear management system, right? Where it's detecting threats and then apart from God, relying on oneself, um, trying to manage or mitigate against those threats. Sticking with the example I use I just use, like the the the a fig leaf is formed through the crucible of competency. Once I become good at something that can become a fig leaf that I hide behind. I've noticed this with my my middle son, Kieran. He's in the middle of baseball season right now, and um hitting a baseball seems hard. Right? Yeah. I mean it's coming pretty quick. You've got to make a split second decision. There's no way that you're gonna get up and every single time you're at bat, uh, knock it out of the park. That just seems to be like an unrealistic expectation. And I've been having conversations with him around just like you've chosen to do a sport where failure is going to be a recurring thing. And there's a psychological component to that. Um, what does it look like when you when you miss? What is the next pitch? How do you how are you thinking um before the next pitch arrives? What do you do when you strike out and you're up to bat again? How did that strikeout impact you psychologically as you step up again? Right. And what I'm noticing is that like the default is um fear. There's fear underneath it, and every strikeout becomes an identity crisis. If I strike out, that means that I'm not good at baseball. I'm not like, and all of a sudden it just snowballs from there, right? Yeah. And I remember, you know, when I was a youngster, I played hockey and I was a goalie. Same thing. Like when I made a mistake, everybody knew about it because usually there was a puck in the net.

Josiah 21:17

Ruined the whole game.

Mac 21:17

Yeah. Yeah. And what does it look like if you make a mistake the next moment? You know, what do you what do you do? You've got to find that space where like you're now present to the next thing. So some of it is just like, yeah, I'm just describing basic like psychology and cognitive behavioral therapy, but there's a deeper part of it where um, apart from God, we see every threat and failure as a as sort of like a threat to who we are. And so then notice that fear we have to work really hard to like insulate ourselves. And if we're not doing well, if we're not performing, if we're not uh hitting home runs, well, then we feel awful about ourselves. But if we do start hitting home runs, well, now all of a sudden. temptation is to go look at me. Yes. And I build an identity around that, but it's still a freaking fig leaf. Yeah.

Josiah 22:07

No, that's so true. Sometimes like being good at something is almost more damaging than being bad at something. Yeah. It's like it's tempting to want to just adopt an identity around the thing that that I'm good at, like you talked about. Baseball is such an interesting example. My coach um would say like he's like even in professional baseball, he said the superstars, the hall of famers fail 70% of their at bats. Crazy. The superstar status is like on my batting average is over 300, which is if you don't play baseball, just means that it's 30% you've got you you got a hit. If you're good at it. If you're really good, you will get a hit 30% of the time you are up to bat.

Mac 22:55

If you're really good. Here's what's turning in my mind with this first one we've named, which is like fearful. And now we're talking about like building an identity identity around competency is how so much this is in the cultural waters we're swimming in. And I think it's malformative. Right now parents are pressuring their kids to find their sport that they need to start at about 18 months. Travel That's a little late in my 18 months. Well it's interesting they've done studies on NHL players and they've isolated that there's a surplus of NHL players born in the month of March because it matches or gives them an acceleration like there's this peaking of when they're able to walk and begin skating. It's just really interesting. The point is is that like this is the culture we're swimming in is like you want your kid to find like what they're really good at and then we hustle around the country bringing them to competitions and sporting events so that they can grow their career as I don't know a ballerina or a whatever. And then and then and then what ends up happening is they experience a crisis of identity when they don't go professional. Why? Because we've basically turned their entire upbringing into wear a fig leaf and I just think like we need to do some deeper work as parents to go, yes, this is fun. Yes, I want you to be good at it. Yes, stretch yourself like there's so much good about sports and teamwork and I, you know? And don't be handing them a fig leaf. Don't don't make it a fig leaf. Right? Yeah.

Josiah 24:45

Yeah and as yeah as parents I think that's like that's a way that you can help them to not make it because like parents are the ones who make that a fig leaf. I mean I'm not saying kids don't they can contribute to it. Of course like yeah I just think that parents have a lot of say in how their kids uh interact with sports. They're taking cues from you they're understanding how important this is and I think that it's just helpful helpful to understand. I I have a daughter getting into volleyball now and I feel I feel the pressure.

Mac 25:17

And I find it helpful just to like okay I'm a sarcastic person uh but sometimes uh like I have this muscle where I'll say something sarcastic to name the bad news someone is believing just to show how ridiculous it is. So like with my oldest son he played basketball. Well what happens when you're at the free throw line and all the eyes are on you know and you miss. Well I just joke like yeah when you miss my love for you uh plummets but when you make it it goes up like see how ridiculous that is like your my love for you isn't hanging on making this shot it's steady and constant constant. So you don't have to be fearful about that.

Katie 25:54

Yeah yeah right yeah it's interesting to just think about how much of our behavior starts um kind of flows from the question like what am I afraid of losing? Like we're all afraid of losing something um is it you know a fear of being misunderstood is it a fear of disappointing people is it a fear of being irrelevant of fear of not being enough like fear hearing you guys talk it strikes me that fear is kind of the engine that is underneath everything else that we're gonna talk about today.

Josiah 26:20

Yeah.

Katie 26:20

Yeah maybe a second characteristic I would name and this seems very related to fear would be protectiveness. Like can there's kind of a protectiveness that that um bubbles up if I'm afraid of losing something or afraid of my fig leaf being taken away what am I going to do? I'm gonna protect it, right? I'm gonna I'm gonna grasp it as hard as I can. So we construct an idea identity. Again I'm the competent one I'm the responsible one I'm the I'm the fun one and then we become defensive when anything threatens that identity when anything threatens to take that fig leaf away. I think this can look like maybe being defensive if we're criticized it can look like hiding our weaknesses, um avoiding situations where failure might be exposed, justifying our behavior, et cetera, et cetera I think there again the reason the false F is protective is because once we've built an identity, well of course we're gonna guard it at all costs.

Mac 27:12

Like this is who I am and I'm scared of losing that because then what am I this is what brought me into therapy what you're naming um being protective and and I guess I would explain it this way it seems to me that part of this is built into our nervous systems to be protective. Like um I think our brains are wired to detect threats as a survival mechanism which is a good thing, right? What I what what was happening to me, and this is you know in my mid-20s is I would get to the end of the day and my brain would have like noted all the threats or things that you know were negative or could have gone could be going wrong in the wrong direction. And my mind would gravitate towards those things maybe a relational interaction that went sideways, a project that isn't going to get done on time, like whatever the negative thing was for that day, my brain would naturally focus on that, sort of ignore all the positive things and then begin obsessing and ruminating on how do I fix this? How do I prevent this thing that I think is bad from spiraling and getting worse. How do I make sure that thing doesn't become a bad thing like you get what I'm saying in my mind I could tell was sort of an overdrive.

Josiah 28:34

Yeah.

Mac 28:34

And underneath it, I I think you guys mentioned it last week that that book the cost of control it was sort of like underneath that was all trying to control all these things that felt threatening you know and it was exhausting. It was exhausting and it became unmanageable especially when it involved relational dynamics because you can't control other people right and man that was 14 or 15 years ago but that was one of the first things I had to like attend to was like the reason why your brain's an overdrive is because yes your brain is wired to detect those threats but between just like feeding those threats how how do we create space to relate to those threats or those things you're noticing differently that make sense?

Josiah 29:18

Yeah kind of am I the only one who's ever done that or am I you know well I think I mean I know we're gonna get into it later in the episode some but what what comes to mind with protectiveness is I picture if you picture two different people picture someone who who's an addict and um and when they're addicted to something how much effort gets put into protecting it and from the outside we can look at someone who is struggles with alcoholism or drugs or any other type of addiction and we can see the destructive nature of it. It's like oh this is ruining your life I think some of the problem that we can experience is that most of our fig leaves in this way um are actually are not only socially acceptable, but they're actually how you get ahead in our in our society. And so I think it's helpful to picture an addict you know like the protectiveness they do from I mean think about someone who's um who's they start to isolate from their family you try to talk to them about it and they get defensive right you have all this protectiveness going around of like protecting this this addiction this part of me if we're gonna live in the way of Jesus he's inviting us to live into our authentic way of living and anything else is destructive even if we don't see it that way.

Katie 30:51

Yeah the image that comes to mind to me is like the my precious is it gum yeah gollum yeah Star Wars Star Wars Lord of the Rings Lord of the Rings I don't know either. I knew it was one of the two gosh but that's like the image that comes to mind for me. Yeah is like something fearful of losing something and so it's like my precious obviously you're not gonna want to lose it because it's precious to you. So what do you have to do then to protect you protect it.

Possessiveness And Manipulation

Mac 31:18

Yeah and that leads to the the third characteristic um that Mahalan names which is possessiveness. So protect when you're protective of something you become more possessive of it. And I know like in some cases it's just actual possessions. People build their false self around having a lot of stuff you know nice cars, nice home whatever we we we're living in late country we can see it. But kind of going back to this illustration of building our identity around something we're good at, well what happens when you become good at something you need to hustle and maintain being the best and yeah it becomes like this my precious this is my identity. And so now am I not only am I protective if there's a threat, but I cling to it and I guard it and I obsess about it and it deforms me. That's why Gollum is a great example he sort of turned in on himself right he's kind of hunched over he looks crazy like the whole point of Gollum's character is to highlight how malformative this possessiveness is for him and what about the freedom so like for me growing up my identity was built around being good at hockey period. I mean my all my uncles played hockey my dad played hockey for Notre Dame he coached me growing up and I was really good at it and that's what I was known for. I mean it was like the glue that gave me relational access despite all the transitions in my life because no matter what new school I was attending I knew that I was good at this thing and that's what I was known for. That's what I was known for in high school. And when it came to an end, I'm telling you right now like it was hard but it was the best thing for me. It was so good for me. And the reason why is because it created space to be free from that hustle and that protectiveness and possessiveness to discover that my identity was never never needed to be built around something that couldn't hold the weight of who I am. Know what I mean? And I just wonder what uh what that frees up for people to go what if your identity doesn't need to be built on this thing that ultimately doesn't have the structural integrity to hold you up and I just know being good at a sport uh was it wasn't it didn't have the support capacity that I needed.

Josiah 33:56

Yeah that's interesting. I think of um I guess we're staying with the with the AA example in my mind um rock bottom moments for people what are they they're they're it it becomes this this marker of everything I thought I was everything that I've been building everything I've been protecting or working to possess like it all like crumbles. It slips out of my fingers and now I'm left with just me and ultimately those are very scary dark moments for anybody but also very transformative if they're if they you know if they're leaned back into a a way of like okay I I need to get my life right so I think of it I I think of that as like a good it's a good picture for us to have is um how many things are we holding on to and trying to possess that if they slip through my fingers like would it ruin everything for me.

Mac 35:08

Some people I've noticed have a surprising ability to redefine rock bottom. Yes they do. You're like wow is this rock bottom nope I guess not you're gonna keep going deeper you know um I had someone come up to me just this Sunday and they told me a story about rock bottom because they have a family member who's hitting rock bottom might reinvent rock bottom I don't know but it was some like I don't know an animal uh uh uh fell down a well and the whole family is like oh no how do we get it out it's it's it's a dry well but they they were like well the animal's old uh probably time to be done anyways we'll just bury the well like this is this is time so they start throwing dirt down the well and lo and behold like the each time they throw dirt down the animal starts rising because they're climbing up the dirt um not really sure what the point of that story was except for when you get knocked down you can get back up could you sing it? Chumbawumba.

Katie 36:08

I get knocked down Yeah these three feel really related to me.

Mac 36:13

Yeah they're all intertwined and it's it would be a mistake yes they are individual fig leaves like we can describe them individually uh but they sort of form a garment you know what I mean like they go together they build off of each other for sure.

Josiah 36:26

Totally another one to name is that the the false self is manipulative. As I was thinking about this I realized that uh I mean I I like to dive into um theories of personality you know I'm I'm a psychology major about you I'm a psychology major in school right now so um this stuff is really fun but uh I think manipulation as a as a concept um everyone does it all the time so it's important I I feel like it's helpful to name that it's not necessarily um good or bad in a in the sense that uh it's very compulsive for us to say I need something I'm gonna need to do something in order to get it um so it's kind of how we subconsciously seek to have our needs met but the false self compulsively seeks its own gain even at the cost of others and so laying down the fig leaf is like a would be no I'm I I see that I I need something but I'm willing to lay that down in order to live out of a different type of principle. Um but the the false self is cut is continually um continually manipulating in order to get its needs met. So I think of examples and these are like on a on a spectrum it could be something that seems more innocent on one side like someone who uh tells like white lies and half truths in order to curate something for themselves whether that be an image or the like oh I want this thing I think of um I have a a a 14 year old and she she just works really hard at constructing things and bringing things up in a certain way and planting little seeds around a subject in breadcrumbing. Yeah in order to try to get me to say yes to something. And often she pushes that too far and then lies about it and then I say no purely out of the sake that she lied to me. But the point is like you have a you you have this like the some more um innocent ways that we we manipulate others in order to get the things we need um could be the way we gossip about other people, storytelling um all the way to more harmful behaviors like coercive control you know like full-on Machiavellian type behavior. Or harming others in order to secure an outcome. So yes we all manipulate to a certain degree or the compulsion to manipulate is there but um the false self is seeking to do it at its own at um no matter what the cost is to someone else.

Mac 39:25

Yeah and it's compulsive the the last time my entire family was together with like nieces and nephews, my dad um decided to like take six whatever number of grandkids we have and give away uh how he had like a table of items and each grandkid could pick one that they wanted. But knowing that the firstborn is often like the oldest is often favored, he's he went youngest to oldest. Well my son Tig is the oldest. So he's looking at all these items and clearly has like one that he wants and it was so funny watching him try to convince the younger ones to like the other ones so that he could get what he wants.

Katie 40:09

That looks like a nice penny.

Mac 40:11

Yeah yeah exactly yeah totally playing mind games with them. You know what strikes me as fascinating is that and you named named one facet of it is just that like um a lot of these things are things we're rewarded for. They're fig leaves that like actually are encouraged. Yeah um what strikes me is also that when I think about what sins quote unquote that Christians like obsess on they're not these things. Right? They're not these things these things that we're naming as part of your old self that you need to take off they're connected to some sins that I think Christians uh emphasize, which we'll get into but like it just strikes me as significant that like uh we followers of Jesus in the church tend to cherry pick or emphasize certain fig leaves and completely neglect others in ways that honestly make us appear really judgmental and unloving. Yeah.

Katie 41:09

Yeah like when you first said the old when you first read the verse about taking off the old self and putting on the new the image that comes to mind is like someone drinking smoking and cussing.

Josiah 41:18

Yeah yeah yeah basically I imagine someone in college at a party listening to chumbawamba how many callbacks can we give to that maybe creed yeah yeah creed oh gosh um no I think that's a really good point Mac because uh I remember growing up in a church my dad was a pastor um the old the old self your false self um you know as Jesus references it like the flesh um that uh all of that reference had to do with behaviors that were that were sinful and I think yes although that isn't like untrue it doesn't really get at what we're talking about what it looks like to surrender our false self in order to live into our true self and our identity in Christ because if we focus only on the behavior itself that is damaging, we actually miss out on on the parts of us that actually allow us to grow. So if we're if we're going back to uh theories of personality here um in any gram language uh there are level it'll talk like levels of health or levels of integration and disintegration and uh all of us no matter how you're wired when you get to the lowest level of integration you're actually the least like your actual self and and that's when behaviors become damaging and self-destructive or harmful to others. But if you're going to go on a journey of like hey how do I submit who I am to Jesus in the way of Jesus and to and to become a more authentic self, it it involves finding those moments where we go from really healthy areas or or ways of living to start degrading or or as it would say disintegrating. So we can wait until we get to those those destructive right drinking smoking cussing um dancing yeah listening to bad music chumba wamba um no but for real Alanis more set jagged little pill it's my first concert now no we're but that's a callback to one of our first episodes that Max talking about but yeah so I'm naming that we can focus on those harsh realities of sinful behaviors or the ones that maybe Christians sort of like uh historically historically focus on but for us in our daily lives Like there are little red flag or or caution sign moments where we're moving from being an authentic self that's rooted in our identity in Jesus, and we start moving towards disintegrating into a less authentic self.

Mac 44:13

Yes. And it doesn't help just to say, stop that. Uh so there's a lot I think we need to unpack, um, but we probably don't have time to do in this episode around like how we relate to um the false self and the sin tied up in the false self. Uh, because I just see church communities having a very limited imagination for noticing and then attending to it in ways that are helpful or constructive.

Katie 44:40

Yeah.

When The False Self Turns Destructive

Katie 44:41

Another characteristic would be destructive. Uh, I think, you know, in some ways the ones that we've just talked about tend to be more inward, inward focused, and this one maybe more kind of outward focused. The idea being that when um protecting ourselves out of fear becomes our primary aim, then the people around us, I think, can become almost like obstacles that that get in the way of that. Um, or they be can they can become like tools that we're using to accomplish that aim. And that ends up doing a lot of damage. Um, and I think it does damage on maybe two or three levels. I think it does damage to our relationship with God. I think it does damage to a relationship with ourselves, and it does damage to relationship with others and our our community. Um, when we become hyper-focused on kind of self-preservation and and making sure that these fig leaves don't get disturbed, um, there's gonna be a cost to that. And I think we could probably alt point to our own experiences. Like name it, okay, you were just talking about manipulation. Think back at a time when you felt manipulated by someone else. Like it didn't feel good, right? That does that probably damaged or caused some destruction to your relationship with that person.

Mac 45:50

Yeah, there's a um a Jewish scholar named Martin Buber who lived in the well, he wrote in the early 1900s. I can't remember what date he published this book, but it was called I Thou. And in it, he sort of is naming the relational posture and way of connecting that's different between I, thou, and I it. So when we it another person, we sort of objectify them. We're using them for our purposes. Uh and what God wants with us is not an I-it relationship where he's either using us or we're trying to use him, but an I thou relationship where we know God and God knows us. Right. And part of the reason why that work is so seminal is because most of our interactions tend to be I-it interactions rather than I thou relationships. Instead of, and if you look at uh Jesus, the life of Jesus, my goodness, part of the reason why um for me, he's uh who I want to live like is because he fundamentally connected and operated um through an I thou posture with every single person he encountered. I, maybe this is bad news, but um I would say that most people that interact with me, uh, I feel like an object that they're using for their purpose in some way. Most of my pastoral interactions are that way. It's like, you know, it's interesting. If you are a leader and you imagine taking that title or position away, who would still want to connect with you? Who would still care about you? Who would still like want to be in your presence for you rather than either what you represent in their mind as a leader or what you can do for them. And that to me gets at the heart of like an I thou relationship. And to the degree we're operating out of a false self where our fundamental orientation towards other people is an I-it, and we're sort of using them uh to further our purposes or what we care about, well, to that degree, we're not only malforming ourselves, but we're operating in a destructive way towards others.

Katie 48:11

I love that.

Mac 48:13

We're not treating them as human beings, yeah, but rather means to my end.

Josiah 48:17

Yeah, the question to ask was is would I would I still be doing this either for or with this person if I didn't get anything out of it?

Mac 48:28

Or genuine affection. I mean, it's even worth asking, like when it comes to your relationship with God, maybe praying or spending time with God, how much of it is like based on something other than just like affection for God, getting an answer, getting guidance, having an experience. Like all of those are seconded, those aren't God. There are things other than God that we cling to or desire, other than just God.

Josiah 48:53

Yeah.

Mac 48:54

Yeah.

Josiah 48:54

Yeah. I'll I'd be the first one to admit uh if I'm being vulnerable, is that my relationship with God often waxes and wanes with um how much I need him. And when I feel like I don't need him as much, I tend to fall away from regular practices of meeting with him. And that's a it's a big one for me because I I actually some somewhat recently realized that the um I can see how it happens now. It's not necessarily like, oh, life's going good. In fact, it's not necessarily tied to how life is going, it's how reliant I've become on other things to to keep me stable as opposed to the more core identity things and relating to God simply because we're enjoying each other's company. Yes. And um I can see how I do that with other people as well.

Mac 49:52

Yeah, I don't think that's unique to you. I think that's just part of the the I it, I thou dynamic that uh Martin Buber was inviting us to become aware of and maybe uh orient to differently. And again, we do that with other people. I'm trying to name as a pastor, I see the same thing. There's people that like come to me when they're in crisis. Then of course I don't hear from them. All of a sudden they reach out again. It's like, oh what uh here comes, you know? Um and there's part of that that's my job. I get that. And there's part of it that's like, huh. Um I would like I would really like more eye thou relationships, you know?

Josiah 50:24

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's hard, it's I think you're right, it's it's difficult to expect that every interaction you're gonna have with someone is an eye thou interaction. Um, or an I should say an eye thou relationship. Um in more psychology stuff, but psychological egoism is just the the concept that if you like it's more like philosophical stuff, but um the idea that like nobody does anything um without without expecting some sort of like gain from it, and that no like there's no such thing as like a completely selfless act because you're getting something out of it anyway. So I think it's okay to name that like there's probably a spectrum of how selfless or high or how thou these interactions with people are gonna be. But it's also um I just think it's important to name that so that you can identify.

Self-Promotion Indulgence And Comparison

Mac 51:26

Yep. Um another characteristic of the false self is the false self is self-promoting. So it's really interesting is that um we end up outsourcing um our identity to the validation of other people. Um so for instance, if our identity becomes performance-based, we're really good at this thing. Well, then I need other people to validate how good I am at that thing in order to feel significant. What's super interesting to me, and it builds on the um observation you had, Josiah, that many of these fig leaves are actually encouraged in our culture. This seems to be a major one with the rise of social media and Instagram and Facebook and so on, is that like self-promotion is considered normal.

Josiah 52:12

Yeah.

Mac 52:13

And um, so much of our identity we're encouraged to put into promoting ourselves in ways that actually don't represent the real us. Um, you know, it's it's I've heard someone say fake book rather than Facebook, right? So we're encouraged to like put ourselves out there. And then we like determine our significance based on how many people like or comment, based on the false self we put out there. Um, and of course, we feel validated and significant if it goes viral, and then we feel insignificant if nobody comments or or likes it. But um, this isn't new with social media. This has always been the case that we sort of rely on the validation or applause or approval of other people in order to feel like we matter.

Katie 53:00

Yeah. I remember when the selfie first started being a thing. I don't know if you guys remember this. Like when I don't know, I don't maybe it was when smartphones came out. I don't know what it was. Yes. And I remember seeing like the younger, younger kids taking selfies and being like, oh, that is like so just the same shameless self-promotion. Um, but now it's just really normal. Now it's just like, yeah, I'm taking a picture of myself. Like, why wouldn't I? Um, but you're right, Beck. I think it's always been there. It's always been a thing. But man, yes, yeah, social media is just created this atmosphere in which we're constantly curating ourselves and put putting forward this um this image that that is self-promoting. Yeah, it makes me think about my own um my own life life and my own example. I obviously worked in um the law for about a decade before coming here. And when I started feeling the call um and the desire to change careers, um, I think I had a lot of this work to work through, like to go through, you know, that like I had built an identity around competency. Mike, you talked a lot a lot about competency. And obviously, I think God gave me certain gifts and I was presented with really cool opportunities to use those gifts in ways that I really enjoyed in my career.

Mac 54:21

Let's just be clear. When you shifted from your career as a uh lawyer uh to working here at Cross Point, uh, that was quite the demotion.

Katie 54:40

You could say that, I suppose. I did get some confused looks when I told people, like, yeah, I'm going to work at a church. I was like, what? Huh? What? Um Yeah. And so I wouldn't have said, I wouldn't have said that I was a self-promoting person. I think it, you know, in politics, it's like, well, not like those people. Like, there are plenty of people who are very self-promoting, and I never felt like I needed my career to like feel good about myself. But man, when it really came time to leave it, there was certainly some of this work that I had to do to uh there, yeah. There's just, you know, when you're normally talking, when you're in normal conversation with someone, one of the typical questions that comes up is like, oh, what's your name? What do you do? Um, and it's one thing to say, like, oh yeah, I'm the chief legal counsel to the governor, then to say like, hi, we're gonna church. I don't know. And that just started to like reveal some things in me. I had I had to start um really seeing the ways that I had maybe built my identity and competence and success and um influence in certain spheres, and had to take that to take that off.

Josiah 55:39

Yeah. Yeah, there's uh yeah, to your point, it's like uh it it's not only normalized through social media, it's also part of how you get ahead in life.

Katie 55:51

Right?

Josiah 55:51

If you're gonna go for a job interview, you know, you're you're not gonna the goal is to get them to want you in that position. So it's very natural.

Mac 56:01

I received an email um yesterday uh from some person, some guy. I don't know remember what he works for, but it was essentially like, hey, the key to your success is to uh create opportunities where you put yourself out there with third parties. So his entire job was to like find people. I don't know why he reached out to me, but he was like, I can get you an interview or an article published with Forbes or Harvard Business Review or like whatever. And um, and and here's a one-minute video to explain why this matters for your self-promotion. Literally, the entire thing was about self-promotion, and the key in his mind was like, get published or get an interview with these notable uh places. And that way when people search you or look you up, um, well, they'll see that you're it will enhance your credibility. It'll enhance your incredibility. And and I just remember just like sitting here going, like, there's an entire industry built around self-promotion.

Katie 57:12

I feel like every industry, yeah. In some ways, every industry is kind of built around it. Because like Josiah said, uh, like a job renew in and of itself is self-promoting. But then what you're saying is here's an entire industry solely based on helping other people get better at self-promoting.

Mac 57:25

Yes. The entire pitch was like, I will make you, I have a template you can use for self-promotion to be awesome. So that when people Google you, your image will pop up. I'll help you with headshots and so on. Then when they go a step further, they'll see all the reputable places you've been interviewed in public. Like you will be screaming, big deal. Trust me.

Josiah 57:49

Is that what he said?

Mac 57:50

Yeah, I mean, it's basically what he said. Um big deal. Big deal. Goodness gracious. Uh and I'm sitting there watching this thing through the lens of fig leaves. Like, what are we doing? And you have the audacity to reach out to like a church leader selling me fig leaves. What is happening right now?

Josiah 58:10

Yeah. Well, even worse, which we'll get into later, is how we baptize self-promotion as ministry.

Mac 58:20

It's for God, Josiah.

Josiah 58:21

No, don't.

Mac 58:22

I Josiah, I should reach out to this guy, schedule an appointment, and get some new headshots done. Maybe he could get me some publication on Forbes, and it would all be for God.

Katie 58:34

You could save souls. It's for God. Yeah, fine.

Mac 58:36

Yeah, don't.

Josiah 58:36

Yeah. I'm getting ahead of myself. Love you, Jesus. I might get fired up when we get to that one later on.

Katie 58:42

You fired up?

Josiah 58:44

Uh no, that's this is good. Um, another characteristic of the false self is that it's indulgent. Uh, life centers on personal gain, um, advantage over others, and also just comfort. Um, comfort and ease sort of become this pseudo form of peace and joy. And I remind myself of that often. I like to think I like to think of the false self craze craves junk food. And we're and I'm not just talking about physical food, although for many people, and especially in America, junk food is like what's your favorite kind of junk food? Oh, you said you're like a candy guy. Candy's bad. I I can't I don't I don't stop very well if I have candy. Um uh yeah, chips. I don't know. I'm not a respecter of persons when it comes to junk food. Um I have to have disciplines around it, or it's bad. Um but my my point is that the false self it craves junk food more than just physical food, uh spiritual, emotional, um, and soulful. Like the false self is going to find quick fixes to feel better. And that often comes from indulgent or self-indulgent behavior and ultimately leaves us empty, which we need more of. And I think uh the distinction between junk food and real sustenance when it comes to our emotional needs is a helpful distinction between the indulgent false self and the and the secure real self.

Mac 1:00:33

This is the one that Christians have been good at naming in terms of like old self, false self. Like this is the fixation. When when Christians talk about sin, usually they jump right to this fig leaf and it's in it's sexual behavior, it's uh alcohol consumption, it's and and all of yes, that's I mean, don't hear me saying that's not a fig leaf. It falls under this indulgent category. We're finding pleasure in the wrong places that don't sustain us the way God desires to. Just note, however, there's eight characteristics here, and this is one leaf. One. Yeah. And so this is where I get a little bit frustrated with uh followers of Jesus who have seemed to take this fig leaf off in the most obvious ways. So I don't drink anymore, I don't, you know, sleep with people like good for you, great, you've done that. Um, but there's all sorts of more subtle forms of self-indulgence that you're not willing to name. And then we conveniently ignore these other seven uh fig leaves that are are covering lots of epidermis, and we judge those who still struggle with like the the the more obvious forms of the indulgent fig leaf. Am I just out of touch with reality or what?

Katie 1:01:51

Yeah, no, and I'm I totally agree. And I'm also just um most curious about the ways that we as Jesus followers do struggle with indulgence, but would it maybe name it as a fig leaf?

Mac 1:02:03

Yes. I I that's what I'm saying is it's like it's like it's like the plank in the eye type moment. Yeah. Like we've cleaned up the most obvious forms of self-indulgence so we can convince ourselves we don't really struggle with that. But then we uh conveniently judge those who haven't removed those, often who don't even claim to follow Jesus in the first place. And then we sort of can ignore all of our false self fig leaf behaviors. And I just want to say, like, that's not good.

Josiah 1:02:29

Yeah, it's really easy to judge others um based on stuff that I don't necessarily struggle with, um, or it's things that um I don't have access to either. Um I don't have access to partying and drugs and lots of other things. Um so it's easy to look at someone and be like, oh, I can't believe they'd do that.

Mac 1:02:48

Right.

Josiah 1:02:49

Exactly.

Katie 1:02:50

Yeah, maybe a final characteristic would be distinction making. Um, and what I mean by that is that our false self creates categories against which we can kind of compare ourselves. Um Mac, I first started coming back to Cross Point after we moved back here to the area in 2019. And one of your and I's first conversation, um you named like an us versus them dynamic. And that was so helpful to me. It was the first time I had heard it phrased that way, and that was so helpful to me, and it gave me eyes to see all the ways that we um as individuals, as Christians, et cetera, create like an us box and a them box in order to compare ourselves to other people, separate ourselves from those people so that we can feel secure. And that's and superior. And superior. Mm-hmm. Superior, safe, self-promote. I mean, go through all the characteristics we just named. I think the way that we increase our feel, our, our, our feelings of um yeah, superiority, safety, the way that we, the way that we um I'm struggling with how to say this.

Mac 1:04:00

Well, you're uh I've used this quote before from from Greg Boyd. He says that uh judgment is sort of subtracting worth from others to add it to ourselves through distinction making. Whereas love, the kind of love that Jesus calls us to, is actually um ascribing worth to others at cost to ourselves.

Katie 1:04:18

Yeah. Yeah, it's like asking yourself the question, who do I need to not be like?

Mac 1:04:22

In order to feel great.

Katie 1:04:23

In order to feel good about myself. So it's like pointing to a group of people or a type of person that I don't want to be like, because when I'm I'm insecure, that's the way that I'm gonna stabilize myself.

Mac 1:04:32

Right. And that connects uh back to what we were just talking about. This us versus them dynamic is present when we judge other people's self-indulgence in areas that we don't personally struggle with. We're making that distinction up. I don't struggle with that. Thank God I'm not like that center over there. Um, so why? So I can feel better about the fact that I don't struggle with that thing. Meanwhile, we conveniently ignore all these more subtle layers of self-indulgent that are very much present in our life, as well as all these other fig life, fig leaves that are present. And I just think we need to stop that game altogether. Um, we need to stop these us uh us versus them dynamics in order to give us a sense of life or validation and be an us without a them. That we're all uh uh the the the ground is level at the foot of the cross. There's not, you know, it's not uneven where I'm a little bit higher than you and you're a little bit lower than me. It's all even ground at the foot of the cross. We are we we're all just hungry people who have found bread in Christ. That's it.

Katie 1:05:33

Yeah.

Mac 1:05:34

That's really good.

Katie 1:05:35

Yeah, and you look at politics today. I mean, you look at like the tribalism in politics, and that is what this is.

Mac 1:05:40

Thank God I'm not like that person over there. Yeah. That liberal. Yeah.

Katie 1:05:47

Well, and it's not just politics, it's parenting, you know? Like in our family, we we do it this way. Like there's all sorts of ways, I think, that we that we do this.

Josiah 1:05:54

Yeah, I think um, like I I hear you mentioning, or I guess what I hear the The theme of is comparison and how we use it to our advantage. Um sometimes comparison can be a a a compulsive response to lots of shame in your own life, right? I'm I'm I compulsively compare myself to others and feel less than them. Uh but we're naming the distinction making is is the fig leaf of comparing myself to someone else in which I end up on top. And recognizing that as a fig leaf, I think it's really helpful because anytime you find yourself hating yourself even in your mind or in conversation against someone else, that's a characteristic of the false self, not of the real one.

Mac 1:06:40

Yes. So we're naming that uh this false self is something that's present for all of us, and you can't name what you can't take off.

Practice Name The Leaves You Wear

Mac 1:06:50

And so it's really important that we learn to name or describe the fig leaves that we've sewn on uh so that we can learn to take them off and let our authentic self in Christ begin to show, to live more and more into that. Uh, the false self is a fear-based system of self-preservation, and it often looks strong. We're actually encouraged and rewarded for these fig leaves. So it feels necessary and good, but it actually keeps us from freedom and rooted in uh Jesus, dependency on Jesus as the very source of our life and our identity. I am going to call an audible. I'm gonna call an audible right now for our listeners. You've never heard me do this, but I'm calling an audible. Um green 38.

Josiah 1:07:36

Omaha.

Mac 1:07:37

Yeah, Omaha. They do have funny ones. Like I guess like they they're really playful with it. Um, quarterbacks are. They just like make stuff up. And but, anyways, I originally I was anticipating this would be one episode. I'm looking at the time, realizing there's no way this is this would be like the longest episode ever.

Josiah 1:07:55

Yeah.

Mac 1:07:56

And so uh I wanna uh I want to do the second half of what we were planning as another episode entirely. But I also don't want to give up this uh practicing something. You could easily listen to this and just kind of go, oh, that was an interesting conversation. And we wanna I wanna invite our listeners to go one step further. So it is praxis time. That's good.

Josiah 1:08:19

Praxis time.

Mac 1:08:19

There we go. Wrong button. I gotta remember, it's on the far left. Listeners remind me that the praxis button is on the far left. Um, I'm gonna give you one practice as we wrap up this episode, and that is to take the list we gave you, uh, the descriptors of the false self, these different leaves that you're we're all tempted to sew on to name and describe what your false self looks like. I'm not assuming that we all struggle to the same degree well with each one of these descriptors. Um, we probably have unique ones that we tend to uh live into more consistently uh than others. But just go through this list of being fearful, uh being protective, possessive, uh, manipulative, destructive, that I thou versus I it's self-promoting indulgence and distinction distinction making, and create some, you know, prayerful, reflective space. Josiah, you named you can't really take off what you can't name, and that requires reflection. So takes your practice is to actually set aside some time to reflect on your life without judgment, you know, or shame or guilt, and just go, what leaves am I wearing? And how is that showing up in my life? And maybe then take one and go, what would it look like to take that off and live into something different? Make sense? Love it.

Katie 1:09:43

Makes sense.

Mac 1:09:44

Well, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed uh today's episode. Next time, we're gonna pick up and build on what we discussed today by mapping out or detailing the religious false self. So we hope you can join us. We'll see you next time.

Katie 1:09:59

Take care.com. If you have any questions, comments, or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.