Why Authenticity Matters

Authenticity is everywhere right now, but most definitions feel thin the moment real relationships get hard. We sit down to start a new Praxis series and name a more grounded, Jesus-centered picture: authenticity is being real rather than counterfeit, becoming whole rather than divided, and closing the gap between your inner life and your outer life.

We talk through what authenticity is not, especially the idea that it means unfiltered self expression. Saying whatever you feel and calling it “my authentic self” can turn into a shield against growth and a licence to harm. Instead, we frame honesty as the starting point for spiritual formation, the kind of truth telling that invites transformation into Christlike love. Along the way we tease out the difference between authenticity, transparency, and vulnerability, including the practical wisdom of sharing the right information with the right person at the right time.

Then we ask the bigger question: does Jesus actually value authenticity, or is this just a modern self help trend. We look at Jesus’ honesty with the Father, his vulnerability in suffering and grief, and his direct confrontation of hypocrisy when people polish the outside while neglecting the heart. We also share how pressure and expectations can distort leaders and families, and how anchoring to values aligned with Jesus helps us stop outsourcing our discernment to other people’s reactions.

We close with concrete practices you can try this week: get fully honest with God, examine where you feel incongruent, and take one small courageous step that matches your convictions. If this helps, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the podcast.

Transcript

Why Authenticity Matters

Mac 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. Today we're kicking off a brand new series on authenticity. While authenticity is enjoying a moment in the cultural spotlight right now, its value is nothing new. It's deeply rooted in the biblical vision of being fully known and fully loved. As human beings created in the image of God, we are wired for relationship. We were made to know and to be known. And yet so often we hide, we perform and we manage impressions by burying our weaknesses. Slowly we begin living divided and inauthentic lives. The truth is, real relationship is impossible while hiding. Genuine connection requires courage, the willingness to show up vulnerably and authentically. So in this series, we're exploring what authenticity is, what gets in the way of it, and what it takes to pursue it in our relationship with God, with ourselves, and with others. Let's get into it.

Josiah 1:14

Well, welcome everybody. My name's Josiah. I'm Mac and I'm Katie. And it is good to be back finally at this table. It has been far too long, and we've been gone for far too long because Katie was gone on maternity leave, but she's back. So welcome back, Katie.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Thanks. It's really good to be back.

Mac 1:33

It's Are you just saying that?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

No, of course I'm not just saying that. We are gonna be talking about authenticity today, right?

Josiah 1:40

So is that really your authentic opinion? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

No, I we had our um fourth baby, little boy Jack, and um he's really sweet. He's a total joy to be around. I had a blast being home with him and just hanging out and um being with my other kids and just really I mean, it was like January, February, March are the months that it feels like there's not a whole lot going on, anyways. I struggle with FOMO as a person, and so it was helpful for me to be home when I felt like there wasn't a whole lot going on in the world. Um, but I loved it. It was really great, but it was also honestly was really fun to come back. Like I was excited to come back and see you guys and and do this kind of stuff.

Mac 2:19

You know, as you sat at home with Jack, who's adorbs, by the way. Adorable. Adorbs. Um when did you most struggle with FOMO? Like, what were you like? Oh, I really feel like I might be missing out on that. What were those that?

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Honestly, it was probably every Sunday when I would leave church. Because like I'm I'm kind of an extrovert, like I thrive on like social energy. So like being around all these people and like, you know, being here for the service and lobby and talking, and then I go home and I'm like, oh, okay, now I'm just gonna be home for the rest of the week. I wonder what's gonna happen here, you know? But then I would kind of settle in and be like, Yeah, this is good, I can do this. But then I would come back on Sunday and be like, This is my jam. I miss these people, you know. Yeah, it was like a little bit of a taste of what I was missing, I suppose.

Josiah 3:05

Yeah. Office is definitely different without you in it.

Mac 3:08

So yeah, you have a presence. Thanks. Uh everybody does. Yeah, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Yeah.

unknown 3:14

Yeah.

Josiah 3:15

But it was just it is very interesting to see how di the dynamics change when even just one person isn't in the room.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Well, and if we have we have a pretty small and a tight-net staff.

Mac 3:26

Yeah, well, and in your absence, we did a series on disability. Um, we did mention you a few times. To test to see if you were listening. I did.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

You mentioned my FOMO.

Mac 3:36

Yes. Uh I've heard from a variety of people just how eye-opening that series was. Um, some really cool stories that I've heard recently. Uh, one individual in our community actually runs a business, and sometimes um he's a dentist, and sometimes he has patients that come in uh who are on the spectrum or experiencing some kind of disability. And he was just kind of pulled me aside and said how meaningful that was and equipping it was for him to continue to love the families that come in, the parents and uh his clients. I just thought that was really neat. That is cool. Um, so to the degree we're able to cast vision for what it means to be a community that welcomes all and not just welcomes, but creates a space of belonging that really energizes and excites me.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Yeah, I thought it was awesome. And let me say, um, Mac, I appreciated your perspective having living with Griffin. And I also appreciated your perspective, Josiah, of saying, like, yeah, there's some like trepidation for me sometimes. And it's okay to feel that and to lean into it.

Mac 4:33

Yeah. And we had some amazing guests, uh, a couple Emilies um and Nilda, who was she's just awesome. So well, speaking of maternity leaves um and FOMO, the combination of maternity leave and FOMO.

Why Authenticity Feels Trendy

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Natural segue to what we're talking about today.

Mac 4:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Which is uh a brand new series on authenticity. Um, you know, authenticity is kind of one of those hot topics right now. I think if you go on the socials, I feel like there's always stuff on what it means to be authentic.

Mac 5:06

Um, kind of like a which is kind of ironic when you think about it. Like I'm gonna go on social media and like broadcast what it means to be authentic. Like there's some dissonance for me there, but whatever.

Defining Authenticity With Precision

SPEAKER_02 5:17

But there's some good stuff too. I mean, I remember a couple years ago I read um, I was really in a Brene Brown phase and she talks a lot about authenticity. One of her quotes I like is that authenticity is the daily practice of letting go of who we think we're supposed to be and embracing who we are. Um, another guy that I do follow on the socials, psychologist Adam Grant, says authenticity means erasing the gap between what you firmly believe inside and what you reveal to the outside world. Um, so I could, we could keep going. There's lots of lots of wisdom out there, lots of thoughts. Um, yeah, it's trendy, especially people with platforms. They like to give their thoughts on what it means to be authentic. Um, but in this series, we want to submit that authenticity isn't actually a new concept, but it is an essential ingredient to having and maintaining real relationship with God, with others, and with ourselves. And what's more is that to the degree that we live inauthentically, not only does it do relational damage, but we end up living divided and fractured lives. So we want to kick off this series by discussing what authenticity is, what it isn't, and why it matters for us as followers of Jesus. So why don't we start there? Let's define what we mean when we say authenticity. We keep saying this word, but before we go further, let's try to fill out what that is. What do we mean when we say the word authenticity?

Mac 6:36

I've noticed people use this word very differently, and that's sort of catapulted me into trying to nail down a definition that I can live with and that I think makes sense. And so I've been working at this for quite some time. So let me throw one at you. There's sort of three phrases I've strung together, and so we can talk about each phrase. Um, but here's my definition of authenticity authenticity is being real or genuine, whole and undivided before God and others, where our inner life and our outer life align. So kind of like three statements. And I'll just like let's just walk through each one and banter about it. So authenticity is being real, it's the quality of being real or genuine. And what I mean by that is it's the opposite of being fake, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah.

Mac 7:27

There was a kid in high school. Um he and like his little group of buddies started using counterfeit money. So what they would do is they'd have like a counterfeit$20 bill, and then they'd go to a concession stand or something and buy something for a dollar or two, and then they get like 18 or 19 real dollars back. Yeah, and they got busted.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah, that's actually.

Josiah 7:52

Well, probably easy to do at a at a concession stand compared to like a an establishment, you know.

Mac 7:58

Right. But when we think about being real, like the quality of being real, it's the opposite of being counterfeit, right? Like you hold up a dollar bill to the light and it has these characteristics that authenticate it. Authenticity. Like it's it's the difference between like actual sugar and sweetener or kind of going back to social media, like your your profile page versus real life.

Wholeness And Inner Outer Alignment

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When I hear that like be authentic inauthenticity is like being fake, I think, well, yeah, of course. I don't want to be that. Of course, no who wants to be fake, right? None of us wake up in the morning and think, like, I'm gonna be fake today. But I think that I tend to um hold up more like like extreme examples. So I worked in politics for a while. My mind uh uh initially goes to like the slimy politician who's saying one thing and they actually mean the complete opposite, or they have no intention of following through what they're promising because they just want the votes, right? Or they'll say this thing to one group of people and another thing to another group of people. Um, you mentioned high school, like middle school, you know, where everyone's trying to figure out like who had who do I need to be to be popular? And then they become that, and then the next day there's something else. Um, I tend to think of those kind of extreme examples, but but then my mind goes, Well, I wonder if there aren't more like subtle ways to that we can be an authentic or fake.

Mac 9:17

Yeah, and I sense in the cultural conversation, this is sort of the substance of the definition is just being true to yourself and being real. Um, but I want to submit that's not enough, like not even close. So that's what led me to the second phrase, which is authenticity is also being whole and undivided before God and others. And what I mean by that is you could be genuine, like you could be real, and you could be a genuine and real jerk. So the second phrase strikes me as really important because it's like wholeness in terms of God's design for human beings. Like the word wholeness has the qual, like it connects to the word integrity, um, integer, wholeness, right? So I'm saying that authenticity isn't just what you get to decide. It's not just you being true to you, it's actually you being authentic according to God's design and living into that as a flourishing human being in a way that's genuine and real.

Josiah 10:18

Yeah, I I guess when even when you were talking about the first phrase of um just like being real or genuine, that's way more work than we give that credit, than we give the statement credit for. If you if you hear that and you think, oh, easy, I'll just quote unquote be myself, then you're missing the point. Because being yourself is um is a lot more work than you think it is. Right? If um if if my expression of authenticity is just an unfiltered, unbridled approach to life where I just whatever is I'm feeling in the moment, I'm expressing out loud and I'm led around by whatever whatever my my defaults are. That's that that is not what we're talking about when we're talking about authenticity. So when I hear those statements, I hear, oh, that is a lifelong journey. Like discovering yourself, knowing who you are, being comfortable with who you are, being okay standing before God as who you are, and being okay with who you're not, and then being okay being that with other people around you without masks or fakeness or um, you know, like the lack of self-disclosure. That's that is a journey.

Mac 11:36

Yes. That's work. Yeah, you don't wake up and just do this, you have to commit yourself to it over a period of time. And again, we're saying it's the quality of being real or genuine, but not just your definition of that, like you're leaning into God's design for you to function as a fully flourishing human being. And as you do that, authenticity is then gonna involve a congruence or consistency, um, an alignment between the inside and the outside. So as you grow into living into God's design in a real and authentic way, you'll notice less gaps between what you're actually feeling on the inside and how you're showing up on the outside to other people. There won't be that discontinuity or dissonance between, oh, I'm presenting myself this way to others, but really I'm feeling this way on the inside. There'll be sort of like an alignment between those, a consistency, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah. In preparation for this conversation, I went back through a resource that you gave us a while ago, Mac, from the Leader's Journey on Authenticity. And one of the things they said was that most of us have learned to hide large portions of our true selves and our relationship with God and others. And this must be unlearned. And then they kind of go in to talk about like public self, private self, secret self. The the fact the idea that we actually have almost different parts of ourselves. Some are hidden, and then we go, oh, this is okay to be exposed and I can show that to the world. But this part's, you know, kind of kept under wraps.

Mac 13:01

Yeah. And some of that goes back to our first formation, which perhaps we can get into later in this series. But when you think back to your own childhood, there were probably certain experiences that you had in social environments or with your parents or whatever, where you experience shame. Like you did something that felt like you were showing up in an authentic way and you were scolded or ridiculed or embarrassed or whatever. And in that moment, you you you probably internalize, at least I did, it's not okay for me to show up that way. That leads to embarrassment. Yeah. Or, you know, social reprimanding or whatever. And so we learn to hide those parts of ourselves in order to get along, in order to avoid negative repercussions. And you can see how over time, if you continue to make that choice over and over and over again to hide yourself, you become increasingly disconnected from that part of yourself and you stunt your ability to be honest and authentic.

Josiah 13:59

Yeah. And it's a I would say it's like a it's a pretty significant source of anxiety when you live incongruent with who you are. I think that it I think it creates like a it just creates this um lack of peace. And and from experience, knowing the times and spaces where I have where you feel more comfortable being yourself and not having to hide that, or just knowing who you are and being in environments that are not as much quote unquote you, uh a better congruence of knowing who I am and being okay with that um produces a certain amount of peace that you can't have when you're running around trying to project an image.

Mac 14:46

Yeah, and I'll just plant this seed. It seems to me that many people I'm talking to my age who grew up in a church environment, felt a lot of pressure in the church they grew up in to conform. And because of that, they were they they responded by sort of hiding areas that they disagreed or didn't feel that they could give voice to. And eventually it became sort of they couldn't carry it anymore. The dissonance between the pressure to conform and all that they were thinking or feeling or experiencing on the inside, devoid of an environment to talk about that, led them to push the eject button. And so I think one thing that's bubbling up for me as we're talking is how crucial it is for us as a church community to learn how to create an environment where people can be honest rather than just impose pressure followed by guilt and shame if there's not conformity. Yeah. Josiah, you mentioned you kind of uh started talking about, okay, if that's what authenticity is, it's the state of being real and genuine, you know, um, according to God's design in a way that's congruent between the inside and the outside. That already kind of casts some vision for what it isn't. You know, let's flesh that out. Um, maybe we could take a few minutes to talk about, and here's other ways people use or talk about authenticity that we want to challenge because it's insufficient.

Josiah 16:12

Yeah, for me, the one of the primary things that comes to mind when I think about what it's not is that it's not authenticity is not unfiltered self-expression. And I will say this as um a card-carrying Enneagram for that uh self-expression um as a default for me is often um it's very much a default. Like if I can just share how I'm feeling or thinking that uh somehow I'll either feel better or I will be known. And um, I've had to work on that, of being comfortable not doing that. But um, so I guess I say all of this as someone who ha struggles with this sometimes, that it's not just this unfiltered, um constant monologue of what's going on inside me to other people. Um, it isn't saying whatever I feel in the moment and then sort of like stamping truth on it. Um you know, like not not every inner thought is meant to be expressed. Um, I I always say this to my kids. Well, I shouldn't say always say this to my kids, but I say it to them sometimes when it like if they feel like complaining uh when I ask them to do something and they're they'll be like, What? I didn't I didn't like sass back, I was just complaining about doing it. And I'll just say, like, well, maybe that's a good that's a I was like, why don't you tell that to your journal and just do what I asked you to do? Like, I'm happy you feel that way, but I don't think that has to be expressed openly in the home all the time. Like, that's something we can talk about later. Um, I I think of that as a funny example, but uh over and above a lot of the other things, I I I think that w we have to separate authenticity from what it means to express yourself. And I think that's where uh social media and maybe people uh generationally sometimes have an issue.

Mac 18:12

Yeah. Yeah, it's not the same as self-expression, yet it is hard because authenticity does involve a certain degree of expression. But I hear you saying it just it can't just be equated with like it being unfiltered. Um, because not every thought or feeling I have really needs to be shared. Some of it needs to be transformed. And so that kind of creates the uh context for self-expression, which are there are times where I might share the ick on the inside with someone for the purposes of moving towards a more transformed self.

Josiah 18:45

Yeah.

Mac 18:46

Right. Uh, I think where we get into problems is when someone is just equating authenticity with unfiltered self-expression, and I'm just gonna leave it there. Like that, that's that's what it means to be authentic, rather than the trajectory being one of transformation.

SPEAKER_05 19:00

Yeah.

Mac 19:01

Can I give you an example where I've noticed this confusion showing up?

SPEAKER_05 19:04

Yeah.

Mac 19:05

Um, and if you find yourself listening to this and um being reactive, I'm speaking to our listeners right now, then I encourage you to maybe attend to your reactivity because I've shared this now with a few different groups, this example, and didn't have anybody react super negatively. So if you find yourself getting really stirred up, now that take a take a deep breath.

Josiah 19:24

Now that you got me all prepared, I'm anxious for what you're about to say.

Mac 19:27

So well, there uh I see, so I do watch the uh the news sometimes um to try to stay informed. And one of the things I occasionally watch is the uh press briefings with Carolyn Levitt. And I've noticed that this is her definition of authenticity when defending things that Trump says. Um it was a big moment when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, and there was a huge memorial for him. Uh I don't even know how many people tuned in, lots. And and Erica Kirk did something and said something at his service that was meant to point to the gospel, the very heart of it. Um, during her speech, she said this. She said, My husband, he wanted to save young men, just like the one who took his life. That man, that young man, I forgive him. I forgive him because it was what Christ did and is what Charlie would do. In that moment, she was saying, Look, like, I forgive the person who just killed my husband, and I'm doing it because that's what Jesus would do. It's the heart of the gospel that Jesus on the cross even said, Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do. Okay. Shortly after that, Trump gets up and he says the opposite. He says, I had disagreed, I disagree with Charlie. I hate my opponents, and I don't want the best for them. Okay. So there's like everything that Erica just, he's saying, I don't share that sentiment. I really don't like my opponents, I don't want what's best for them. And the next day, some reporters uh in the press briefing room kind of drew attention to like the dichotomy, the the discontinuity between those two statements. And uh Karen Levitt uh characterized, she defended Trump by saying he's just being authentic. He's being his authentic self. That was her phrase. And she offered a defense of what he did by saying, hey, this is why millions of Americans support Trump and appreciate him, because he's just being true to himself, even if it's jarring for everybody else. He's just giving his, he's he's giving expression to himself. Right? Uh, my main point is to just go that seems to be an example of the exact confusion we're talking about. That um, irrespective, I'm not bringing Trump up to say, hey, you Like this isn't a political comment. This is just a public example that we can all draw on to go, hey, there continues to be a defense of this type of behavior in the name of authenticity. But some of those comments, quite frankly, um, when you're when you're sort of countering the essence of the gospel or demeaning someone, those to me are examples not of the unfiltered self-expression, and those sentiments actually need to be transformed, not shared. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Yes, that would be an example of unfiltered self-expression. And I like the point you're making about why what's the purpose for me bringing up the ick inside of me, as you said. Is it just because I actually want to share for the purpose of becoming transformed, or is it this is who I am, take it or leave it?

Mac 22:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Right.

Mac 22:47

Authenticity is not unfiltered self-expression without restraint, which I think those two two examples I'm trying to give you illustrate. Rather, it's wholeness according to God's design that's shaped by love. That's that's my contention.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Yeah, I like that because it I think it authenticity really can be used as a shield. We talk a lot in staff about like personality types. We use the Enneagram quite a bit. And when we talk about the Enneagram, we often talk about how it can be used as a shield. It shouldn't be, but it can be. People can say, well, that's just how I am. Like, right? So I'm an Enneagram three, which is a personality type that tends to be hyper focused on like productivity and efficiency. And um, if someone were to say to me, Hey, it seems like you're running really hard, or like, didn't you say you feel like you're gonna pass out? Maybe you shouldn't be driving to work right now.

Mac 23:40

May or may not have happened.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

May or may not have happened.

Mac 23:42

Um Do you remember that, Joseph? Uh how sick do you need to be to call in sick for work? And we discovered Katie's answer is passing out on the way to work in the car.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Eight months pregnant, literally. I'm like, I think I might faint. Um So if someone says to me, Hey, it seems like you might, you know, you might be operating at kind of an unhealthy level if I were like, well, that's me. You know, that's my personality type, deal with it. That would be using this idea of authenticity as a shield, like something to kind of defend me against, protect myself against having to change or be transformed.

Mac 24:16

Yeah, it's not the same thing as this is just who I am. One person that comes to mind. I wasn't allowed to watch this as a kid, The Simpsons.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Oh.

Mac 24:24

I grew up in a pretty like conservative Christian home, so that was like no go.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

But I think I was at a certain age.

Mac 24:29

Yeah, but eventually I've watched them episode. And one of the things Homer often says, he frequently does harmful or lazy things, but then just says, I'm just being me, you know, kind of as like a shield against change. And I've noticed that speaking of kids, they they play all these. Our oldest son is pretty stubborn. When you get into an argument with him, he's like unmovable. I don't know where he gets that from. It's probably probably Josie.

SPEAKER_04 24:54

You said it got me.

Mac 24:55

Um but but we'll notice, like when he when we get into disagreements with him, he'll often say, This is just how I am, this is how I'm wired. And there's something to affirm about that. I do think you're wired to be more stubborn and resistant and argumentative than other people I know for sure. And that's not an excuse for avoiding maturing in your presence so that you can figure out how to navigate conflict um in ways that are conducive to, you know, relationship. Yeah.

Josiah 25:29

Yeah, I just my my brain is working right now. I I feel like we we define authenticity as um when you define it too much as just self-expression, uh, whether that's just making excuses for who I am and then saying, well, this is who I am, deal with it, or saying whatever comes to my mind, even if it's mean or unhelpful. Um I think that maybe authenticity, if it's the end goal, there are multiple there are a variety of ingredients that equal authenticity, right? And um authenticity isn't just one of the ingredients. If any if authenticity is the goal, then we need things like self-expression. You need things like um self-reflection, you need things like transparency, um, and being able to like distinguish between different levels of transparency, what's helpful to me, what's helpful to someone else. And then there's a certain level of transformation that that needs needs to happen as a follower of Jesus, of like I I'm not gonna know really authentically who I am unless I'm following Jesus and like submitting to the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. And so when we use the word authenticity as as its own like action, like in the in the Trump example you used, like he's just being authentic. Well, in our definition, no. He's he's uh disclosing the a thought that came to his mind and then not apologizing for any any at any of the damage it could have caused. That's not authenticity.

Mac 27:08

Right. We're sort of naming that authenticity um has its telos in cruciformity, in Christ-like love. And our authentic self is tied up in, wrapped in, our identity in Christ. So as we become more authentic, according to God's design, we actually become more Christ-like, which is why any self-expression that we give that maybe isn't Christ-like, well, the purpose of expressing that has to be by way of reform or transformation. And sometimes we'll be expressing ourselves in ways that are consistent, but also vulnerable and courageous.

Josiah 27:43

Yeah. And which is, you know, to be fair, we need that. We do need spaces where we can authentically and transparently express ourselves through through vulnerability. And like even in the Trump example, like maybe in the right context, him being honest about the fact that I don't love my enemies would actually be a very helpful part of the process.

Mac 28:08

To be transformed.

Josiah 28:10

Because they're like, well, to be honest, I mean, we have those moments in our our leadership intensives, the these longer discipleship groups where it's like when someone's finally honest and they just say it out out loud in that group context, it's often very transformative because they realize, oh, I maybe I really don't agree with God on this thing. And when I'm honest about it, it really gives me a chance to like transform, to like submit to something else. Yes.

Mac 28:35

And so in that sense, there is an endearing quality to someone who's going, I know the gospel points to this, and I don't naturally. I don't want that. Right.

Josiah 28:44

I don't want that right now. And but I want to want that, which is why I'm submitting it. Yes.

Transparency Vulnerability And Discernment

Mac 28:49

And perhaps a uh spiritual uh director would be an appropriate person to talk through that with, or a community of other disciples rather than a public moment on the stage. I'm I want to be clear. I'm not trying to pick on Trump and you know, this isn't a partisan thing, but but I do think that because you could pick any politician or any public figure and we could do the same thing, right? But but I also feel like, hey, time out, we have to be able to filter things through the eyes, mind, and heart of Christ. And we're living in this moment where it feels like certain things are off limits, you know, like oh, you can't talk about that or someone will get offended or whatever. And I want to go, no, no, no, timeout as a spiritual leader. We and we together are spiritual leaders of our community. It is appropriate to look at the things that are being said publicly to a lot of people, everybody's hearing it and go, time out from a cruciform center, from a Jesus center. How do we begin to unpack that so that we can be more discerning and more Christ-like ourselves? And my concern is someone could download that definition of authenticity as unfiltered self-expression, and then it gives um sort of permission to say and do hurtful things rather than attending to it in the larger context of formation. Does that make sense? That's my purpose in sharing that example. It's not to give a partisan jab or anything like that. Um, I'm sure if we went through all of Biden's comments or Obama's comments, I could, we could, yeah, we could do the same thing, right? Yeah. Um, you used a word, Josiah, that I think highlights another thing for me that I would want to be clear that authenticity is not. Um, and it's probably the most common one that I hear when when teaching on authenticity, you use the word transparency. And I don't think those are disconnected from each other. Certainly being authentic involves a certain degree of transparency. Um, but I want to say that authenticity is not the exact same thing as transparency. Um, in trying to coach and encourage people to show up as their authentic selves, oftentimes the first move is to go, oh, that just means kind of go back to self-expression. That just means I'm fully transparent about everything that's happening to me, no matter what, and with whoever's in front of me. And I want to insist that that would actually, that's very, oh, uh, that's not very wise. It wouldn't be wise to be fully transparent with every single person you encounter in life because not everybody is worthy of your trust or is safe to do so with. And so I'd want to distinguish between transparency and authenticity by saying that you can be authentic with every single person you encounter without being fully transparent with them. So let's say I'm with someone who I don't know very well. Maybe they haven't done anything to like, you know, discredit trust, or maybe they have, but I don't trust them yet for whatever reason. Um, and so I decide I can be 5% transparent with them. Five percent. 95% of what I'm thinking and feeling, I'm keeping to myself in that moment because they haven't warranted my trust. Authenticity is to say, but that 5% I'm giving them is true. It's real. Whatever percentage of transparency I'm giving someone in any interaction should be real. It should be authentic, it should be genuine, not counterfeit.

SPEAKER_05 32:15

Yeah.

Mac 32:15

Right? Um, and then as we get into deeper relationships, obviously that percentage of being transparent should increase, which requires vulnerability and courage. I was recently doing a training on this, and someone said, what's the difference between transparency and vulnerability? And that kind of stumped me a little bit. Like, what is the difference? Are those interchangeable? Are those synonymous? Um what would you guys say?

Josiah 32:49

Yeah. Well okay, off the top of my head. I think that vulnerability um is like the posture you take towards someone or something. Like I'm not, I'm not, um, I'm not withholding who I am. Uh and transparency is more of like uh the conduit or the the vehicle that like brings part of yourself to the the interaction.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yeah, I was gonna say transparency seems to require vulnerability.

Mac 33:22

So a certain to a certain degree I hear you saying they're inseparable. Like you can't be vulnerable without being transparent.

Josiah 33:29

But transparency has varying degrees. So like the some something could be like I mean, if you're just looking at let's just say like uh a film or or let's just say they're like if you're making a digital image um in Photoshop or something and you were adjusting the transparency, it would be how see-through it is. So um if you have a percentage, I'm 95% transparent, you're gonna see almost no filter between the thing that you're um laying over the top of it. But if I if there was like almost no transparency, you would hardly see the thing underneath it. So there's always a discernment process of figuring that out. I've heard um Brene Brown talks about transparency and because I think people ask her the same question, like vulnerability, does that mean I should just like spill my guts to everybody I see? Yes. And she talks about there's like three things to consider. She said um healthy transparency needs to be the right information to the right person at the right time.

Mac 34:37

Yeah.

Josiah 34:38

And if you use those three things as uh as discernment markers, hey, this may be like, oh, we're openly sharing, and it may be the right time because it's uh and it's the right people, but this is too much information for these people. I'm not that close to them. Or, you know, you can use those as discernment things, or this is the right information and it's the right person, like a spouse or something, but it's the wrong time, right? So, like I I am classically bad at that if my wife's listening. Um, she would be laughing. But it's like uh when I feel like something needs to be talked about, it's like we need to talk about it now. And it is the right information, it's the right person, it's the wrong time, like right. It's like the morning, just as we're starting our day, probably not gonna like try to dig into a subject that wouldn't be very kind to her, and it's not gonna go well, right? Yeah. So it's just in a I think those three things are good, are helpful.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Yeah, the right information to the right people at the right time. Yeah, I like this distinction, Mac, and you've brought it up before um on staff. I think it's really helpful. Like an example that comes to mind is let's say something's going on at home, right? Like let's say you have conflict with a spouse or kids or whatever. Let's say you're waiting on a health diagnosis. You meet someone new, you're not gonna go tell them that. I'm not gonna go by lab all the information of a conflict with my spouse. But that also doesn't mean when they ask me how I'm doing, I'm like, great, my marriage is awesome, right? I think that's where kind of the inauthenticity comes up. Like, I don't have to disclose all the details, but that's different than putting forward something that's not genuine.

Mac 36:18

Yeah, one um thing that Trisha Taylor has said, and I'm not gonna get quote her correctly or like, you know, get the phrasing exactly right, but there's some connection she makes between vulnerability and putting something that you care about at risk um in someone else's hands. And I think that's helpful for me to kind of get at the nature of vulnerability and perhaps a distinction between that and transparency or treating transparency as a vehicle is that transparency is like um naming what I'm thinking or doing, but vulnerability um might be uh give give a little bit more emotional, sort of like how I'm doing to someone else that might put things something at risk. Right. Um which points to the key ingredient that like I don't think you can show up uh uh authentically without some degree of courage. So if you're like naturally more cowardly, authenticity is gonna be hard. It's gonna be really hard to show up with the kind of courage and um the kind of courage required that goes into showing up authentically. Yeah. Um, you know, we've talked about Brene Brown. You know, she's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Um well, she's done a lot of work in the show. She has like a lot.

Did Jesus Value Authenticity

Mac 37:36

I know. She is cool, man. She is very cool. Um I think she's cool. Uh yeah. But I mean, she's kind of put this front and center. She's a big name. She's talked a lot about it. We've brought her up numerous times. But see, I'm so cool, sometimes I resist what's cool in order to start something new that's even more cool. Oh, I see. Um, I'm so cool, I'm anti-cool. No, it just raises this question. Sometimes I get like if there's like a cultural trend that seems to be gaining tons and tons and tons of traction, I want to be informed about it, but I also kind of maybe Cameron's the best reference point for this. I can get a little skeptical about it too. Like, ah, what is it like? Yeah, is this really all it's you know what I mean? Is this really what it what it's supposed to be? Like I just find myself kind of in these moments where everybody's kind of gravitating towards something that creates in me like a little bit of uh suspicion. And so I've begun to ask this question that I'd love to talk about. Is this just like a culturally cool thing inspired by the likes of Brene Brown or folks like her? Or is authenticity something that Jesus actually valued? You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to care about authenticity just because of Brene Brown's research, as great as it is. I'm a disciple of Jesus, so I'm trying to pattern my life after him. And that involves my values to the best that I can discern them, matching his values and then living into them. So I'm asking the question: is this just a culturally cool topic or is this something that Jesus actually cared about?

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Can I take a step at answering?

Mac 39:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

The latter.

Mac 39:22

Okay. Great. Is that just a defender? Am I right? Yes. Uh I do think you're right, but I think it's worth like filling out the answer more. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 39:35

I agree.

Mac 39:36

I wouldn't be doing a podcast on authenticity in the way of Jesus if I didn't think that Jesus cared about it. So obviously there's a connection there for me. But I might start by just going, okay, so how do we know that? Well, one would be that Jesus was um real and genuine and honest both with God and others. And it's worth reading the gospels through that lens. Where do you notice Jesus showing up completely honestly and vulnerably with his father? And where do you notice him doing that with other people, those around him? Obviously not 100% transparent all the time, but like being authentic. And a couple examples is I again you could read through the gospels and and note lots of examples of this, but maybe two that um are worth catching or noting would be the Garden of Gethsemane. You know, we just got done with Holy Week. Um, at the time of recording this, that was last week. And so we just kind of walked through this at our Good Friday service, and you look at Jesus in the garden, anticipating what's about to happen. And it's very clear like he doesn't want he wants something. If there's a different way to produce the same outcome, that's what he's asking for. If there's a different way to provide forgiveness and to reconcile all that exists, is I want that in a different way. And he says, and and and he's sweating drops of blood, according to like he's so anxious, but he's bringing all of that right into God's presence in a way that's real and honest. And then what's so interesting is he's invited his disciples to be present to him in that moment too, and they're unable to. Like he's like, Would you stand, watch, and pray for me? And they, of course, don't know what's coming, so they're not feeling the same urgency. They're probably also just ate a bunch of rich food from Passover, so they're kind of sleepy, but they keep falling asleep. They did drink wine. That could be it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but it seems that Jesus isn't trying to enter into that charged moment with God by himself. He's also inviting his closest disciples to be part of it with him and to support him in it. We see Jesus doing this. I mean, Lazarus, I mean, the shortest verse in the New Testament that Jesus wept. I mean, that is another just like very vulnerable, um, authentic expression, grieving the fact that death exists and causes harm to people. Right. So if we go, did Jesus care about authenticity? Was this something Jesus valued? I want to say, well, it seemed to be present anytime he talked with God or related to other people. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, show me an example where he wasn't being authentic with God and other people.

Josiah 42:40

Yeah. Often at cost where he could have tried to smooth things over and not be, and wouldn't wasn't willing to do that.

Mac 42:50

So is that case closed or other things to point out?

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Um Yeah, it strikes me that he it's it's interesting that he was so authentic while also establishing himself as the the son of God, which I would think would carry some pressure of having to I mean, say or do things perfect. He was perfect, so let's I don't know how to reconcile that. But but the fact that he was um, you know, this this figure who carried a lot of authority and yet had that vulnerability, I think just paints a beautiful picture. Yeah, the Lazarus, the story of Lazarus sticks out to me too, because we talked about the connection between authenticity and vulnerability, and you see that there. Like Jesus shows up very vulnerable, and it seems as though he wasn't all that concerned with what people might think of him. You know, he just strikes me as someone who wouldn't seem to be managing perceptions, um, or think, oh, that what if this takes away from my credibility? Like I really got a ministry to to start here and I you know, people are following me and looking to me. And I don't know that it was all that socially acceptable in that culture, but but he had courage and I it I think that's a really neat picture of that. And his vulnerability, his authenticity with God. I think so often that can sometimes be the hardest place to be authentic. Like we think we have to put this face forward with God. Mac, you were talking about how at churches sometimes there's the most pressure of any environment to show up with a certain um a certain front.

Mac 44:19

We did that series back in January. The series was called Honest to God. And that was the entire point of it is that you can be honest with God no matter what you're feeling or thinking. Like if there's one person that you don't have to filter anything with, you can just unfiltered self-expression. It's God. He can handle it.

SPEAKER_05 44:38

Yeah.

Mac 44:39

And we kind of walked through the psalms and showed how the psalmists didn't uh sanitize their emotions before talking to God or clean up their feelings. They just brought it out into the open. And that then became the context for transformation. And I had so many people come up to me pretty much every week of that series saying there were things that they had been sitting on in their life, feelings or experiences that they've had that they hadn't been bringing to God. And that sort of became a catalyst to do that. And God, God was meeting them, story after story of God meeting them in that honesty and authenticity in a way that provoked transformation and in some cases deep healing. Um, and so I think it's essential to our relationship with God.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Yeah. Yeah, we've referenced the idea of congruence that authentic authenticity is about alignment between what's going on on the inside and what's happening with the outside. And I also see that in Jesus. Um, we certainly see him call out where that's not happening. So if you look at, for example, Mark 7, he says it is from it is from out of a person's heart that evil thoughts come, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, et cetera, et cetera. So the conversation, the context for that conversation is about um what makes a person clean or unclean. Is it what we eat or you know, dirt, things like that? And he's saying it's about he's shifting the focus. It's not the what's on the outside, it's what comes from the inside that makes a person clean. And he's talking, he's confronting a group of people who look very put together on the outside. They're disciplined, they're moral, they're religious, but internally there is a disconnect. And we see something similar in Matthew 23, where he calls out the religious leaders for hypocrisy between the inside and the outside. This is the passage where there's like a series of woes to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, where he says, Woe to you, you hypocrites. You give a tenth of your spices, but you have neglected the more important matters of the law: justice, mercy, faithfulness. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you're full of greed and self-indulgence. And it keeps going on and on and on. Woe to you. And the critique in this passage, again, is that they look righteous on the outside, but inside they're corrupt, they're self-serving, and they're disconnected from God. And I think what we see Jesus doing here is exposing that disconnect, the disconnect between a polished outer life and a depleted inner life, because what they're showing on the outside isn't flowing from like purity of heart.

Mac 47:06

Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. And he there is an exposure we see throughout the Gospels where there's that lack of congruence. And there's also an invitation into deeper congruence. So, you know, we spent how many, like over a year or two in the Sermon on the Mount. And this seems to me to be like at the heart of it is he's saying, you need a righteousness that surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, who on the outside, as you named, Katie, are put together. And then he goes on to give a bunch of teachings that intensify and internalize the law so that there is a congruence between what's happening in the uh on the heart level and what's showing up uh in your actual behavior in life. So I see it both as a exposing the problem with people who aren't congruent and providing teachings for, and here's what it looks like.

Josiah 47:56

Yeah. I think it would be very possible to think you're being Christian, quote unquote, and being and there being a very deep incongruence between your inner world and your outer world. And although we like to point fingers at the Pharisees, that um because yeah, they're uh low-hanging fruit when it comes to critiquing people who are incongruent, um this is exactly what we're talking about, and I think it's something we all deal with, and especially in Christian circles, like it's already been mentioned, there's a pressure sometimes to conform on the outside and not be honest about what's on the inside. And to me, the the call to authenticity is really just that. It's it's um it's uh being willing to admit who I really am, what is going on on the inside, in an effort to let Jesus transform it and be more aligned with what's going on.

Mac 48:56

Yeah, and that requires a certain degree of reflection and examination strikes me as significant. That's why we talk about the prayer of examine so much, because at the heart of it is praying the end of Psalm 139, where it's like, search me and know me, O God, see if there's any anxious way in me, if there's any way I'm failing, show it to me. I mean, a regular examination of your life in God's presence exposes those areas, those gaps between the inside and the outside, so we're not fooling ourselves by showing up on the outside in a way that is, you know, out of alignment with the inside. And that's a lifelong journey. Yeah. That is something I will have to do for the rest of my life is regularly examine my motives in light of what I actually do. Yeah. Katie, you alluded to this earlier. You were saying that Jesus sort of stayed true to his values. Yeah. Right. As a manifestation of authenticity.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Yeah.

Mac 49:49

Right. And that strikes me as significant because, and you were narrating this before, like when we're trying to read the room and figure out what are other people expecting of me, or how do I conform to this, then we kind of lose ourselves in the process of that conformity. Which raw which is why authenticity actually requires knowing yourself. What do I think? What I what do I believe? What do I value? Yeah. What will I do and what won't I do because of or in spite of social pressure. And it seems like Jesus just gives us a masterclass in staying true to your values, despite a wide variety of expectations around him.

Josiah 50:32

Yeah. Yeah. He very consistently resisted pressure to conform to what people's expectations were. And um you're right, that requires knowing it, it required him knowing who he was and who and who he wasn't. And um Yeah, being able to live into that um, even when it's costly, is is a journey, right? And I don't think that we're as good as at it as Jesus.

Mac 51:00

We are not. In fact, we're not even as good at it as Jesus was when he was 12 years old.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Yeah. I mean, I for one will admit I'm terrible at it. Terrible. This is a life. We talked about the Enneagram 3 thing. This has been a life. Maybe in a future episode, I'll talk about more of my own journey because I've had a long journey um with this. So that resonates a lot.

Mac 51:23

I was this morning um in uh Luke chapter two, where Jesus um is in the temple, and it's clear from Luke 2 that like his family was they would go to Passover every year, and that was part of their custom as faithful Jewish folks, and they would often travel in like caravans. Like, so you would Jesus lived in Nazareth, so he would likely go with his entire family and the entire village, friends and family. They would go to the festival and then return. So you would, and it was safer to travel in groups of people, but there's this story where Jesus is 12 years old and they get in a day of travel. They've traveled a day as their caravan, their group, and then they realize Jesus isn't with them. And again, that's not like negligence on Mary and Joseph's part of a little. Well, I mean, it's pretty common. It was pretty common for like you to be part of a big group and um and assume that Jesus is part of that mix. And then they realize he's not there, so they go back to Jerusalem to find him and they search for him for three days. So that's four days total. And then they find him in the temple, like listening to the religious leaders, asking questions, interacting with them. And they're astonished that this 12-year-old um is able to like hold space with them. But it's really interesting, and this disrupted me this morning quite a bit. Is Mary says, How could you do this to us? We've been anxiously searching for you. And I sort of resonated with her a little bit, like, Yes. Yeah, Jesus, like what was your problem? Like, why didn't you communicate with them? Why didn't you stay? Like, if you knew you were gonna stay back, yeah, send a text or something.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Something, you know, just basic consideration.

Mac 53:07

Basic consideration. But he didn't communicate with them. And then he responds by saying, Didn't you know? What like where else would I be? Didn't you know that I'm about my father's business? And it's like, what he's defining himself in that moment, but it's almost like blaming if it felt like on my first reading, he's blaming her for not knowing where he'd obviously be.

Josiah 53:32

Yeah.

Mac 53:32

And I'm just sitting there going, Oh my goodness. And then it occurred to me, well, maybe that was like maybe it was more him sharing with her, this is my orienting center, like a reframe. And there's all these cultural expectations that Jesus is violating in that moment, going with the group, um, being defined by his parents' expectations. And he's clearly saying, in a disruptive way, um, that's not going to be my primary orienting center. The primary thing I'm about is my father's business. And it is going to upset expectations of the people around me. And then right after it says Mary didn't understand what he was saying, which led me to the observation that when Jesus was defining himself, even at 12 years old, the people around him didn't fully understand what he was doing.

Josiah 54:26

Yeah, there's so many, there's so many things with that story. I have so many questions about like how did he get left behind? Was it Jesus purposely staying behind? Maybe Jesus woke up and he's like, everybody's gone.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

I want to know who fed him for four days.

Mac 54:41

Yeah, where'd he point meat? Yeah. But there's all sorts of examples. This is just like the one that popped up for me this morning, but there's examples of this all over the place where Jesus, out of authenticity, is defining himself against the group pressure around him and the conformity that's expected. He's staying true to his values. So staying true to your values, and I would actually say in alignment with Jesus, is essential for authenticity rather than giving up your values to the people around you. Yeah.

Josiah 55:13

I I have found that to be one of the more helpful things in living my life as uh what I as what I struggle with. Uh what you know, Katie, you talked about the expectations of others and feeling the need to meet those is uh is a journey and and a and a struggle. I find that living out of principle and value is the answer to that. It is the it is the way of like you have something else to anchor to besides what someone else wants me to be. And I think that um is it's an important distinction because in churches, we've already talked about the pressure to not only conform, but also to conform in a certain way that allows others to define you, to sort of trample over your needs that, like, oh, you give up of yourself, let someone else do that. Um and all those can be can be good values, right? Being generous, being humble, um, being self-emptying. Uh, but it's an important distinction that living into your values isn't the same thing as choosing yourself over others, right? Um, in fact, living authentically from your values and principles uh actually protects you from acting, saying, or being something to someone that's incongruent with who you really are.

SPEAKER_05 56:35

Mm-hmm.

Josiah 56:37

Yeah. Because people's expectations and that pressure is gonna continually press up against um it's gonna continually press up against you, and you're gonna have to make decisions in moments all the time. Am I making this decision out of what someone is expecting me to be? Uh, to your point when you talked about um earlier on when you you were you were quoting someone, like feeling pressured to be something that someone else needs me to be. Um, or am I going to choose to be like really me?

Leading Without Living For Reactions

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Yeah, so right. So so define your values. And what we're saying, I think, is the more you define your values in line with Christ, and the more you have your identity rooted in him, and those values flow from what he's inviting you into, and he's inviting us all into wholeness, the more we're clear about those values, um, the more we can use that then as an anchor to say, how do I want to show up? How do I want to communicate? Is this pressure from someone else or is this in line with what I value?

Mac 57:39

I like that. I'm really I really feel like I'm on a growth trajectory with this one right now. Um I have a lot, I have a long way to go. Um, but I feel like in the last maybe six months to a year, there's been some movement for me in this area that's brought new clarity that I'm trying to live into and it's been messy and so on. But as a pastoral leader, I constantly feel the weight of other people's expectations. I I I often feel like I'm a container for people to project their expectations on me and then figure out how to meet them. Maybe just one example is when people come to church on a Sunday, they often want me to say things that validate their their perspective. They expect me to validate their point of view. Okay? I feel the weight of that because that means anytime I say something that I know might disrupt someone's perspective or challenge someone's perspective, there's a response waiting for me. Know what I mean? And then you put yourself in a uh a leadership position where there's competing expectations, competing values, competing perspectives, and now you can see pretty quickly that this is like a lose-lose. If, for instance, we have uh uh let's let's use politics for an example. Let's say we have someone sitting in our congregation who leans more left, and we have someone sitting in our congregation who leans more right. And newsflash listeners, that's that's reality. Okay, we're not a uniform congregation politically. But if you have two different people who land in different places politically, and there's a political moment that requires some spiritual leadership, and both of them hold different convictions, but are expecting you to validate their point of view. How do you win there? Right? That is a lose-lose as a leader. So then you sit in the tension, at least I do. Well, I could not say anything, but sometimes that feels really tone-deaf, and it feels like that's an abrogation of leadership and responsibility to fail to say something important that points people to Jesus. But if I do say something, well, the person on the right may not be happy, or the person on the left may not be happy, whatever it is I say because I'm not meeting their expectations. Um and I feel like I'm on a growth curve right now to sort of excuse myself from those expectations. Not that I'm not aware of them, but refusing to submit to them by centering myself on an on something different instead of having to validate people's perspective or conclusions, going, here's my center. It's the heart, mind, and eyes of Christ. How does Jesus view this? How would Jesus respond to this? And of course, I may not have perfect access to that, but I'm giving myself to the best of my ability in reliance upon the staff and the leadership team, the community around me to discern what that is and give voice to it, knowing that's my center. So then when expectations are not met or people are disrupted, I can go, at the end of the day, I have to stand before Jesus, you know, and go, did I give voice? Did I use my voice to the best of my ability where I'm at in my own journey and leadership to point to you? Rather than making like my orienting center appeasement or fear, expectation management. Does that make sense?

Josiah 1:01:34

And it still is really hard for me. Yeah. Well, I think it's it's difficult in any position that you're leading. I mean, it could be smaller, like a family unit, or larger like a like a congregation full of people. I think of it um, I I do uh I've discussed this with my wife in our home trying to figure out like parenting values, especially in a in a blended mixed family. It's uh there's a lot to go over, right? There's uh can sometimes competing values and um often it feels like you have to choose one or the other. And but we've talked about it, like uh something. Well, maybe she wouldn't mind if I share this. Uh sometimes she guess we'll find out. Yeah. Sometimes she struggles with um, it's not necessarily expectation management as much as it is reaction management. It's um it's sometimes you don't realize how much you outsource your uh your discernment if you did a good job or not, depending on people's reactions. So if so if the kids get all huffy and get all mad about it, it's like almost like, oh, we made the wrong call. And and and it's not it's not as explicitly said, but that's definitely the the underlying sentiment of of your own parenting uh evaluation is how did how did they react? Or that were they really angry when we had had to do this? And then it's like, well, then how do we fix that next time? It's like, whoa. Yes. Like we can like operate out of values and principle. We do our thing, expecting that, especially their teenagers, like they are going to react in ways that are less than ideal.

Mac 1:03:17

Yes. So go back to my example for a moment. You brought it into the phone the family, and you said, hey, another person's reaction can't be the gauge for you know how I showed up because it's their reaction. This is something I've been working with our staff and our leadership team on for quite some time. But most recently, the most recent iteration is, and I'll share this with our listeners, we have a document we've been working on for quite some time that maps out our guiding principles in culturally charged moments that help us discern when and how to say something about it from the stage. So that we're not just reacting emotionally or under the anxiety of the moment, but our like best thinking is on paper to say when something significant is bubbling up, here's what we want, here's how we want to lead and give voice to things in a Jesus-centered way that is not partisan. We're not gonna placate the right or the left. We're gonna focus on Jesus. For me, what's so empowering about that is then in those moments, I have to give myself to the best of our thinking about how to do that well. And that then becomes the evaluation point of how I did rather than someone else's response to it. There have been countless times where um I've said something or done something from the stage and someone else has had a negative reaction, and then the focus becomes how I said it. And then as we evaluate it, it becomes obvious like there's no perfect way to say anything, but like, no, it was pretty much on target, which then highlights the fact that the growth curve isn't how I'm saying it. It's actually the other person's response to it. Yeah. And I see Jesus living into that tension quite a bit. He often said things and did things that were very disruptive, but he didn't go back and go, oh, like maybe I should have said it differently to prevent that negative reaction. Now I'm obviously not Jesus, so I don't assume that I'm saying everything perfectly. I have to live under a constant state of self-evaluation and reflection and examination, of course, of course, of course. But it seems that Jesus' primary reference point when defining himself wasn't other people's reactions. In fact, it seems he intentionally provoked reactions so that he could attend to what's inside of them. Yeah. In any case. I wasn't expecting to go into all of this today. I really wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Well, just maybe just to offer a quick insight. It it feels like the more pressure you have, um, the more weight you have of other people's expectations, like you, Mac, with having a congregation of hundreds of people that are you're speaking to, the harder you're going to have to work to really be intentional about what it means to be authentic, right? Because it's like you've got such an audience when you're preaching of people who get to Listen and respond, and you've got a lot more coming at you. Um, and it sounds like it feels like when those the pressure is really high, it's gonna take work to really be authentic and to have to kind of anchor yourself in what your values are.

Mac 1:06:13

Yeah, and authentically, right now, I'm fearful that people will listen to my criticism of Carolyn Levitt and assume, oh, that must mean Mac is progressive or left-leaning when that isn't the case.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:24

Yeah.

Why Authenticity Changes Everything

Mac 1:06:25

So I get fearful about that, but that's not the the question is was that example true or not? Yeah. That's a different question to ask. Yeah. And it's not my job to sort of manage everybody else's interpretation about me and in light of an example. Like that's that's not my job to do, right? Okay, we've asked the question. We've asked the question. Was authenticity something that Jesus valued? Or is it just Brene Brown? And we've tried to say Jesus was authentic with God and others. He um challenged, he invited and challenged a congruence between the inside and the outside, and um he stayed true to his values despite lots of pressure to do otherwise, all expressions of authenticity. Our conversation has gone a while here, but let's maybe discuss quickly why this all matters. Like, why does authenticity matter, or should it matter for us as a community? And I'll kick us off. Um, we've hinted at this. I think it's essential for your relationship with God. Um I would go so far as to say honesty is the key ingredient to having a relationship with God. You can do all the prayer, all the Bible study, all the small group stuff, like you can do all of it. But if you're not bringing the ingredient of honesty into those spaces, it's not going to lead to breakthrough. Underneath all of those spiritual practices or any discipline you could name, like spiritual practice, authenticity is like the fuel that gives it meaning and significance and allows you to connect with God and then be transformed by God.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:10

Yeah. And Josiah, you mentioned earlier our leadership intensives. I feel like that's like the focus. We spend an entire year helping people get honest with God. Do you feel like that's the work?

Josiah 1:08:21

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I agree. Yeah. Authenticity is also essential for relationship with yourself. And I would name that maybe this is sort of the the crux of the other two. Because I don't think that you can have a great relationship with God if you don't, if you aren't honest with yourself either. Because we've talked about it before. Um, I think it was one of our podcasts that God meets you where you really are. He doesn't meet you where you think you are or where you think you're supposed to be. Um, he's only gonna He's only going to meet you in your authentic self, not in the fake self. He's not interacting with that. And so um I think there is a peace that we search for in lots of other things that really only comes from just knowing who we are and who we're not, and just being okay with that and and then submitting that to God to relate to God in a more deep and authentic way, and be able to relate to others in a way that offers God the opportunity to transform us.

Mac 1:09:26

Yeah. I mean, many theologians throughout church history have named the connection you're making between knowing God and knowing yourself. John Calvin, for instance, linked those two, like you can't know God without knowing yourself. Um and maybe to uh just piggyback on the idea of transformation, let's let's just assume that the the the journey of transformation involves taking off my old self and putting on my new self in Christ. Right. We just got done with our sermon series, practicing resurrection. That was like a big theme. Part of the reason why knowing yourself is so important is because you can't take off what you can't name. So I've heard over the years the critique of self-reflection and stuff being like navel gazing. Like you should just be so focused on God that you're not even focused on yourself. And I get the concern. There is a variable where we can start to get too self-focused, yes. But that seems to be a drastic overcorrection. Because if I'm to take off the old self, it involves looking at myself enough to be able to take it off.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:26

Yeah, you have to know what you're taking off.

Josiah 1:10:28

Right. Yeah, so self-interest is not the same thing as self-knowledge. Right.

unknown 1:10:33

Right.

Josiah 1:10:33

Live living our lives in a self-interested way where we prioritize what we want and what we think over others is not is not is a byproduct of of pride and sin, not overknowing yourself. Yeah.

Mac 1:10:47

I like that. That's a good word.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

Um, yeah, and then I might add, we've covered this, but it's I think authenticity is also essential for relationship with others, right? Like if we want real relationship with other people, which we hopefully all desire. I mean, we follow Christ together as a community in relationship with friends and family and other believers. And I think that real relationship starts with authenticity. And how because how can you be in a genuine relationship with someone if you don't really know them and they don't know you? Um and I think again, being fully known by others starts with being fully known, like you said, with yourself and by God.

Mac 1:11:24

Which is why the way we go about dating, I mean, I haven't dated for a long time, but is so jacked up. Because you think about it and you're like, I'm getting together with this person and I'm putting my best foot forward. Well, you know, my first story of my of my Alexander, which is hilarious as an Enneagram three that you just didn't care at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:40

Yeah, I thought it was total self-sabotage. So we were on our first date, Alex had asked me out, and we were talking. And admittedly, now we've admitted we were both kind of bored with like the normal small talk, and like, yeah, this is fine. And then he brought up a recent Supreme Court case and was like kind of signaled some agreement with it. And I remember doing the calculus in my head of like, this guy's never gonna call me again. But like we're talking the constitution, like that's where I draw the line. Like, I can't, I'm not just gonna like say some niceties, like, okay, yeah, sounds good. I was like, no, I'm sorry. Like, I totally disagree with that case. Here's why it was wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah. I went into my rant, which totally outlet me as a nerd. Um, but it was authentic. And he's like, Oh, that's actually what I realized. I liked you.

Mac 1:12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:18

Isn't that fun?

Practices To Build Authentic Courage

Mac 1:12:19

Yeah, that is fun. Um, and that that's a perfect illustration of how it leads to real relationship. But most people when they date, they're not doing that. They're putting their best foot forward, very cautiously, you know, determining what to say, kind of like trying to read the other person what they might like to become that. And then if there's any traction, it becomes this long journey of gradually like taking off the mask to see if the person's still gonna like you. And maybe we could see a parallel, not just to dating, but any relationship. Oh, I think we've got like a connection here, but I'm kind of putting my best foot forward. But would they really still like the real me if I showed it to them? And gradually we kind of show a little bit more real, and oh, is that too much? Are they gonna reject me or abandon me or not? And there is something refreshing about how you and Alex started, which is like, I'm gonna be real with you, authentic, and genuine right from the start, so that I'm not worried about taking off a mask and surprising you later on. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So yeah, it's essential to relationship with God um to ourselves and to others. And let's transition into praxis time. Um, you know, we close each episode with some concrete practices. You've listened to this conversation. What can you do to begin uh growing into authenticity and and with God's self and others? Um, what would you guys say?

Josiah 1:13:46

Yeah. Well, you can start by just being being real with God. We talked about a lot of concepts today, one of them being transparency. Healthy transparency is the right information to the right person at the right time. And with people, that's a discernment process of figuring out, you know, whether maybe you're dating and there's a certain level of uh, you know, uh self-disclosure that I may keep from someone until I can trust them. Um we don't have to do that with God. So God is God is the one person that we can be fully transparent with all the time. And so I think that sometimes we get some of the other stuff screwed up because we're not practicing that with God first. And I think that um uh start your journey with any of this stuff. You're like, where do I start? Just being real with God. Um, journaling is a great practice. Obviously, we talk about a lot, lamenting if there's things going wrong in your life, um, and being honest about your own motivations and and how much you really want to do things. All that to say is um start by just being fully transparent and open with God. We don't have to discern what God wants to hear or not. He already knows our thoughts, he knows our desires, he knows everything that happens and considers us beloved. So we can start this whole thing by just being able to just dump it on God.

Mac 1:15:15

Yeah, and if that's new to you, um, or you want to learn more on how to do that, then and go back and listen to, or if you haven't listened to it, that series that we started the year off with, Honest to God, that will give you that could be like a if you feel like God's highlighting that for you, that could be like a project you start to chip away at to go deeper.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:33

Yeah, yeah, that was yeah, that is a helpful series. And the Psalms in general, I think, are really helpful for that. Yeah, another practice would just be attend to congruence, you know, looking at, okay, when I look at my own life, where might the inside and the outside be lining up and where are they not lining up, and then identify an area and take a step towards bringing them into alignment. You know, when I um worked as an attorney before I came here, and when I um started thinking about the decision to leave that career and come here instead, the first and probably hardest step was admitting that to myself that I wanted something different. Um Thankfully, I was in a leadership intensive at the time with your wife, Mac, and that helped me in processing what I really was thinking and feeling. But I had to get honest internally in order to understand what I was really feeling and be able to name that, and then from there I could move forward with God and with others.

Mac 1:16:26

Yeah. So be real with God, attend to matters of congruence between the inside and the outside. And then maybe a good practice for for you would be just to learn to define yourself with others. I might say identify a core conviction that matters to you and is aligned with Jesus, and then intentionally act on it this week, uh hopefully in a moment that resists cultural pressure or expectations of other people to kind of grow your your your authenticity, muscle, or your your courage. So some examples I thought of is like maybe it's gossip. You you're in a workplace where there's just lots of banter and talk about other people, and you just say, Nope, I'm not gonna talk, I'm gonna talk to people rather than about them, and I'm gonna resist that, you know, group pressure to join in. Uh maybe it could be boundaries. Maybe you're a yes person because you're trying to meet other people's expectations. And every yes means a no to something else, and so you have to learn to say no. So maybe you say no to someone in order to say yes to the right thing, and you disappoint someone, or you have to work through that awkwardness of not meeting their request. Uh, maybe it's honesty. You express your opinion when you disagree with someone or you think it's different rather than just pretending like you agree or staying quiet. And maybe it's truth-telling. You speak up when something seems misleading or untrue that someone's saying. Uh, those are just examples that came to my mind. But again, the key is uh a core conviction, a deeply held value that matters to you and that is aligned with Jesus, and then sort of living into that when there's a moment where it'd be easier not to.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:06

Yeah, and I like the idea of just taking a small step. Yeah. Doesn't need to be some huge, scary thing. It might be.

Closing And Next Steps

Mac 1:18:12

Yeah, it could be. It could be, but it, yeah. Well, thanks for joining us today. Um, I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Over the next several episodes, we plan to do a deep dive into all things authenticity. And in our next episode, we hope to name some of the most common barriers that get in the way of us showing up authentically. So that's where we're headed, and we will see you next time.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspoint WI.com. If you have any questions, comments, or any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast.