Don't Be A Stinky Sponge

Belonging is not the same thing as being allowed to attend. We talk about disability in the church all the time as a matter of access and inclusion, but what happens when someone is “welcomed” and still treated like a project, a problem to solve, or a person to hover over? That gap is where real discipleship gets tested, and it is where our conversation with Nilda Rivera begins. 

Nilda is a minister and missions associate with Special Touch Ministry, and she also lives with spina bifida. She shares her story with honesty: growing up in foster care, navigating daily life with a wheelchair, and carrying real wounds from abuse. We slow down to talk about healing as a process, what a trustworthy church response can look like, and why minimizing someone’s pain can do lasting damage. Her journey also highlights God’s grace in surprising places, including mentors, pastors, and a community that made room for her voice. 

From there we move into the heart of disability ministry and church culture: the difference between being ministered to and ministering with. We unpack why repeated “Are you sure you don’t need help?” can feel small but demeaning, how people with disabilities are often overlooked, and what it looks like to restore agency and mutuality. We also talk about worship, and how people with disabilities often model a freer, more embodied love for God that the rest of us need to learn. 

If you want a clear next step, we offer one: become a friend. Listen, then share this with someone who serves in your church, and tell us what practice you want to try this week. Subscribe, leave a review, and pass the episode along to help more churches move from inclusion to true belonging.

Transcript

Why Disability Belongs In Church

Mac 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. Right now we're in a short series on disability in the church, and I want to encourage you not to tune out. Did you know that roughly 17 to 20% of the population lives with a disability? That's far more people than many of us realize. Statistically, chances are high that either you or someone close to you is part of that number. Yet far too often people with disabilities find themselves pushed to the margins. In a culture that tends to value people for what they can do or how much they can achieve, those with disabilities are frequently overlooked or perceived as having little to contribute. And while our society has made real progress towards greater inclusion, which we want to celebrate, we're convinced that inclusion alone is not enough, especially in the church. So in this series, we're exploring how to move beyond mere inclusion toward becoming communities of genuine belonging. And today we're going to have a conversation with a friend of ours, Nilda Rivera, who is not only disabled, but a minister. So let's get into it. Well, welcome everyone. My name is Mac, and today I'm sitting with two friends, Anna Walloved and Nilda Rivera. And Anna, uh, I'll introduce you. This is your first time on Praxis. Um Anna works in our front office. If you're part of our community, you know who Anna is. She could, because she leads worship uh regularly on the weekends. She's fun fact, she's Josiah's sister. So they're related. Yeah. And as this conversation gets going, uh, perhaps you'll like disability is not an abstract concept. It's something you're approximate to. And so um I'm looking forward to any contributions you want to make from your own lived experience. Anna, um first introduce me to our guest today, Nilda. So why don't I turn it over to you to kind of give us some context of who Nilda is and and welcome her to our to our show.

Anna 2:16

Yeah, for sure. Well, I am so excited to introduce Nilda. Um, Nilda, I think your email came across our office at such an interesting time because we had just talked about doing a series on disability, and your email came in kind of telling us who you are. And um I thought, oh my goodness, what a great opportunity for us. So um, Nilda is a minister with the assemblies of God and serves as a missions associate with Special Tuts Ministry, a non-denominational ministry that focuses on reaching and empowering people with disabilities. Um, Nilda was born with Spina bifida, and her life and ministry have been shaped by a deep desire to help others with this ability discover their value, their purpose, and their place in the body of Christ, which I think is amazing and I'm so excited to hear more about.

Mac 3:02

So, welcome, Nilda. It's great to have you with us today.

Daylight Saving Time Warm Up

Nilda 3:06

Well, hello. Thank you for having me. I'm very honored and humbled for this invitation. So thank you.

Mac 3:12

Yeah, you know, we often start praxis with just a little bit of a banter. We often throw out a fun question and then just kind of go back and forth a little bit. So I came up with one this Sunday is daylight savings. And I wanted to hear from you and Anna, how do you feel about daylight savings? Is it uh uh a good thing, bad thing? Would you keep it or change it?

Nilda 3:38

Uh well, the thought of an hour earlier night, I'm not sure. But it's nice that we'll have daylight though, longer. So it's a it's a pro and con kind of thing for me.

Mac 3:50

Yeah.

Anna 3:51

Yeah. I think I have pretty strong feelings about it. I mean, let it rip, Anna. This is I mean, make yourself known. I am not a fan. I do like daylight, but I have four kids. So it doesn't matter to them what time the clock says. They will be up no matter what. So we just get up earlier.

Nilda 4:09

Yeah.

Mac 4:09

I also have strong feelings on this. I um my conviction is that we should head into daylight savings time here and then just keep it there.

Anna 4:18

Yeah.

Mac 4:19

Know what I mean? So let's let's set the clocks forward an hour and then let's just hang there forever.

Anna 4:28

Right.

Mac 4:28

With more daylight into the evening.

Anna 4:30

Yes. I agree.

Spina Bifida And Foster Care

Mac 4:32

That's how I'm feeling about it. Well, I'm glad we could reach a spirit-led consensus. That feels good to me. It's a great way to start the podcast. Um before we jump into your work, Nilda, as a minister and a missions missions associate with special touch, you have um, I'd love to hear some of your story. You have a disability that I know that comes with a lot of challenges. So could you just tell us a little bit about your disability and share your story with our community of listeners?

Nilda 5:01

Sure. So I have spina bifida. And with my level of spina bifida, it's um what we've called all three. And it's it's uh mine is from the waist down. So um I I I um have I'm not able to walk on my own. Um, so I use a wheelchair for mobility. I did use crutches at one time and then um do some true surgeries that I had um years ago when I started to to use my wheelchair um full time. And so um, so I have upper body it's just uh from the waist down that I um is the disability. And uh so yeah, so I was born with that and uh I one of the things that I I'm of Puerto Rican descent. My family, my parents were born in Puerto Rico and uh they came here when they were young. And then uh um so I was born, but I and I was born here in in the state. And um I lived with my my biological family until I was five years old. And then um Milwaukee, the county that I lived in at the time, they felt that I would get better um medical um assistance and care if I was in foster care. And so yeah, so at the age of five, I was um placed in foster care and I was raised in foster care until the um age of 18. Okay. Um I two of the family I lived in four different families, and uh two of the families were were um people I didn't know at the time, and then two of them were uh the last two families that I looked were relatives.

Mac 6:56

Um wow. So spina bifida, you were this was something you were born with. So if you you've experienced this your entire life. Correct. And it affects you from the waist down. And so I imagine that comes with a lot of sort of daily challenges. Um, as someone who raises a son with Down syndrome, I I often forget that people maybe don't have access to like the day in and day out challenges of caring for someone with a disability or for someone who has a disability. So fill out for us for someone who maybe doesn't know what what are some of the daily challenges you experience uh with your condition of spina bifida.

Nilda 7:42

Well, um I live on my own. I have my own apartment. And uh um, and it's really not the apartment itself is not considered accessible. However, God, you know, I'm able, you know, thank the Lord. I mean it's it's worked. I mean, it's worked for 30 years. So um, but however, that's the thing is just being careful to making sure that I don't, you know, I you know, I can't keep my balance, you know, if I hold on to things. Um it takes me a little longer to do things, but I just have to do them differently, but I get it eventually done. Um and um so it that's the main struggle is just making sure that that I'm you know, I I'm careful with because of the lack of balance that I have.

Mac 8:35

That makes that makes sense. And you narrated as part of your story, you're of Puerto Rican descent. I am and so kind of a double minority here, um, Puerto Rican descent and um you live with a disability, and your parents um gave your biological parents gave you up for foster care um when you were five years old. Two of the families you lived with, uh, you didn't know two of them were like relatives. How did you process that? Um or how how have you processed that transition into foster care? Did it feel I don't want to like you know, project onto you, but I imagine there but there was some stuff to work through there, um, feeling like maybe you had been given up by your parents.

Nilda 9:25

Yes, yes, for a long time. For a long time, I was I was angry, I was mad. I might, you know, um, I was because I did feel that way that they gave me up, they just gave me away. And um, you know, one of the the first family that I lived with, they were very abusive. Um and then the second family that I lived with, they were Christians and they were different. And so I knew that you know something was different and you know, they seemed nice. And so it was through that family, excuse me, that I realized that I started to heal a little bit. However, um what was you know, and that's where I came to know Jesus was through that family. So through the second family that I lived with. Um however, it wasn't until I was an adult that it was through a a series of events when I was an adult that it was like I really that God showed me um the reserve there was uh a message that my uh that I was at at church one morning. It was Easter morning when I was at service and the church that I went to and he was talking about something completely different, you know, with the Easter story. And then he started to talk about Jacob Jacobin, the mother of Jose Moses. And they um he he said, you know, she how she put him in the basket and you know, at three months old. And you know, he said what a you know and to to protect him and and things like that. And later on that afternoon, I was having a conversation with someone, a family family member at a family gathering, and I told him, you know, he went to the same church, and so he knew the sermon. He goes, Yeah, when we were talking about that again, and he's like, Yeah, what a what a sacrifice. And it was like being a light went on. And it was I realized it wasn't that they gave me up, it was a sacrifice for for my better.

Mac 11:43

Yeah, so it's it sounds like obviously you had to process um maybe some abandonment stuff, like they gave me up maybe because they didn't they didn't want me or I was too much or something like that.

Nilda 11:56

And because there was neglect issues too, um which was when I was living with them, there was some neglect issues too. So yeah, but it was just because my dad didn't know.

Mac 12:08

Sure. Um, but it sounds like in God's grace, at a later time, especially after experiencing some of the sadness, grief, and anger of that, and and sitting in the confusion, um, God communicated his love and care for you.

Nilda 12:25

Yes.

Abuse And The Long Road Of Healing

Mac 12:26

You alluded to something else um a second ago, and you don't have to talk about this if you don't want to, but it sort of piqued my curiosity and deepened my sadness in your story, which is you alluded to some abuse um that you experienced while in foster care, and it sounded like that may have had um an influence or shaped you in some way. Do you want to talk more about that, or is that something you'd want to move on from?

Nilda 12:54

No, that's we can. We can. That's fine. So um thank you for asking, Joel. Um, I went uh the first foster family that I uh went to were um they were very physically abusive and and verbally. And um, you know, I believe there was some prejudice there. They were Caucasian, you know, me. And um I would I thankfully was able to to still go visit my family, um, like on the weekends and stuff. However, the reason I say there may have been prejudice is because they would always make derogatory derog derogatory comments about my family when I would come back home. And so there was their physical and um emotional abuse in that family. So and then you know, um, and then later on in my teenage years, I did I did um experience sexual abuse too in the yeah, um, but uh yeah, but God's you know, God's grace, you know.

Mac 14:05

Yeah, fill that out for us a little bit. You just said God's grace, and I'm I mean, this is hard stuff, Nilda. As I listen to your story, I'm like, my goodness. Um not not pity, but just deep, deep, uh sort of in standing in solidarity, trying to see you and see things from your perspective and enter your story. You were born with a disability, given to foster care at age five, experienced a lot of transitions, some of which involved an abuse abusive environments, uh, physically, verbally, and and sexually, and here you are, and I'm not hearing someone who's um enraged and stuck in bitterness, and that just makes me so curious. It makes me so curious about how you've leaned into um God's presence and his desire to heal you and continue to move you in the direction of flourishing. So, how did you experience God's grace in healing after experiencing a few abusive situations?

Nilda 15:10

So it was it easy, it was not easy, that's for sure. And it it was, you know, it's a wound. And when wounds are used to heal, they have to be exposed sometimes to the open to be healed, and so that and that's not very comfortable. And so um it was really interesting. God used different people to to bring along the healing. Um, I'll never forget the I was at a church. It was shortly after I had rededicated my life to the Lord because one of the families that I had lived with um it was when I was 14. Um they and which is it was relatives and they didn't, they weren't Christians, they weren't born again Christians, so it was very easy to just go back into the world. And so it was during that time that I experienced different abuses. And so um when I was 24, I gave rededicated my life to the Lord and I ended up going to a the Lord led me to a church back into the assemblies of God uh in a church near my home. And that pastor I had not told anybody what had happened, you know, um with my one relative. And um I we all went to the same church and I didn't feel that I didn't feel that I could talk to someone there. So one Sunday, um shortly after I had started going to the church, the AG church that I started going to, we had a speaker come and he spoke specifically on abuse and going through abuse and things, and you know, it just resonated in me. And um so that day I felt, you know, I had to talk to him, the pastor, and I was at my at church and tell him. And I didn't uh I was nervous, very nervous about talking to him. And um, so when I did, and then he said and then he said to me, I yeah, I know, I know your aunt and uncle, you know, and I was like, Oh, great. That's why I was like, oh great. But then he said, but he said, Don't you worry, I know that that's wrong. And so God used him very much in that church that I was at at the time to be a real healing place for me. Um just through different through through speaking with pastor and just through different through different things at home and that through prayer, you know. And like I said, was it easy? No, it was painful, but you know, God is good and and he does that because he wants us to be better, he wants he wants us to thrive in him.

Anna 18:11

Yeah.

Nilda 18:12

So um, so that that took time. Yeah.

Anna 18:16

Yeah. So it sounds like you really felt called to step in and kind of share your story vulnerably with a pastor, and you were a little bit taken off guard when he mentioned your aunt and uncle. But I think it's so beautiful that he was he met you with, you know, grace and compassion and helped you walk through that difficult time. That's that's really awesome.

Mac 18:36

Which can be rare. I mean, let's just pause there and say, you know, um, at least as a pastor, I know this that uh I've studied this issue more broadly, and just how often when uh people confess or share experiences with abuse, they're not taken seriously or they're minimum minimized and sort of pushed to the side. And so um maybe exactly how I was afraid of, yes. Yes. And so what a gift to have a pastor who had some awareness to be able to see and hear what you experienced and take it seriously, and then be part of, you know, um joining you in whatever God wanted to do to bring about healing. And I think that's important for our listeners to hear that when you maybe encounter people who've had or experienced abuse, that there's there's there's a type of response that's helpful, and there's a type of response that could be really, really hurtful. Correct. I also, as you were talking, was drawn to the idea that healing is a process. Yeah. And it can be painful, it takes time. But I wonder if we could just pause for a moment and talk the three of us um about how you've experienced, you know, like the process of healing. So maybe I'll kick us off. This is kind of gross, but uh at the end of the year I had a couple moles removed.

Anna 20:00

Yes.

Mac 20:00

And the biopsies came back and it was like, oh, these aren't good. They're they we need to take like bigger margins. So I went, I uh just Tuesday went back for my second procedure to have like the second mole like removed. And um right now I have like a big bandage on my right shoulder where they you know took more of the more out. And what I'm noticing is that for the first couple days, um, I've got a bandage on it, it's covered, it's very sensitive. You know, I don't want to touch it or go near it. Um, but but after that, after maybe like four or five days, it'll be really important to like take the bandage off to give it increased air and exposure. And that like accelerates the healing process. And then within a few weeks, you know, I'll be able to like move more around that area, eventually take the stitches out. And as you do, as you said that, you you use the word light, like some like this wound was brought into the light, and it just kind of, I don't know, that image came to mind to go like when there's a fresh wound, it needs to be covered, it needs to be there needs to be like really good care and protection. And then there's like this gradual exposure to light in safe ways, and then and then from there we can start building.

Anna 21:24

Right.

Mac 21:25

Does that make sense?

Nilda 21:27

Yeah, yep. Exactly.

Anna 21:31

Yeah, and and I think that the danger can be we get these wounds, and I think exp especially like abuse, um the thought of talking about it to somebody feels so scary. You often people never go even without saying anything. They hold it in their whole lives, and then that wound never heals. But I think that first step of exposing it or sharing your experience with someone can feel so scary. Um, and even from personal experience, it can feel like, oh my gosh, I can't do this, and you hold onto it so tight and you stress. About it, Nilda. I'm sure you can, you know, relate. And then once you finally talk about it, especially with a safe person, which I have done, and it sounds like you have done, Nilda. Um, man, there's like this almost instant relief of like, oh man, I don't have to carry this alone anymore. This isn't just my own thing, you know. And I think when given to somebody you can trust or in a community that uh you can trust, it it can be very freeing.

Mac 22:25

Yeah, and that's a key word, trust. I mean, uh, Nilda, you went to a pastor who you felt like you could trust. Um, I don't think it would be helpful to disclose something that personal, um, that sacred or nerve-wracking to someone who you don't know very well or you don't know you can trust. And that's where I think um when people have shared tough things they've gone through with clergy or with with Christians who uh don't know how to respond, that's where the the pain can actually be amplified.

Anna 22:55

Yep.

Mac 22:56

Um, so it's really important that we become trustworthy people and know how to relate to people's wounds.

Nilda 23:03

Right.

Mac 23:04

Um, go ahead.

Nilda 23:07

Oh, I was gonna say, and there was, and then you know, that was like at the beginning, like right, right at the towards the beginning, um, where I started to um remember that that had happened, and that so it was that was like my first time sharing with someone was him, and then later on, God I brought into my life my pat uh another pastor friend, a female, and she was very instrumental too, and and became like a mentor too, and that's cool, helping me through that.

Anna 23:45

Yeah, that's cool, and I think it's interesting how stories like that kind of unfold. Like God doesn't just demand we expose everything right away, but there seems to be this process as we begin to trust people and trust God that He's gonna care for it, that it slowly unfolds and healing um, I think can be a slow process, but definitely a beautiful one.

Nilda 24:05

Yeah.

Finding Freedom In Disability Worship

Anna 24:06

Yeah. Yeah. So Nilda, uh, you had mentioned before, uh, after you know, kind of running from God for some time, you said you came back to faith uh and eventually found yourself called to to minister to other people. And I would love to hear more about how that how that came about for you.

Nilda 24:26

Sure. So um when I was um so back in uh 1997, uh well, actually 96, 97, um I had met a friend at the at a church that I was um going to attending, and uh she told me about a ministry that she was involved with at the time for people with disabilities, and it was a special touch ministry. And so I was like, okay, and so um before that I had seen flyers of of it like on a bulletin board, but I didn't really pay attention until I got to know this friend of mine. And so um in 1997, I decided to go to one of their they had what's what's called a winter retreat. Um and uh I went it's a weekend long and I went there and I just loved it. I felt loved it. I was like really it was really a neat experience for the weekend. And at that uh retreat they talked about the summer getaway that they have in that a week-long getaway. And I was like, oh, I think I'll go there. I'll I'll plan to go to it this year as a guest. So um so I did. And I remember praying and asking God, Lord, just show me what you want to show me while I'm there. And um and he did. And it was kind of an ouch kind of experience for me, but it was good because you know, my disability, I mean, I have a disability, uh, however, they have all disabilities in at the getaway, and including intellectual. And I I realized that wow, that I kind of had that I had pride in my heart. Like, you know, oh I I don't have my disability is not that bad, you know, Allah. And really, and the Lord really showed me says, No, it's not that you're better, it's that it's just different. Your disability is just different. And so I was like, And I'm like, okay, thank you, Lord. And and another thing that God really showed me and I just loved is you know, when it comes to worship and worship time and how people with everyone that was there with a disability, no matter how severe or how light, they the worship was incredible. The freedom to worship God no matter what, it that gave me a new freedom to just worship God, just just worship Him, no matter who you are, what your ability or you know, or not. It doesn't God just use your heart and just the freedom to worship, that's what I learned there. That's really what I learned there and um uh at the getaway that first year that I was there. So I was there as a guest, I would go as a guest for I think about seven years, I think I did. And then um in 2004, I think it was I you know, I thought I think, you know, I remember that, you know, how much care the caregivers gave me and how impressed I was by them and how they took care with me. And so I was like, I wanted to try that. And so I said I actually you know uh filled on an application that year to to be a caregiver. And so I was. Um, I was a caregiver, and the people that I was with were um for um intellectually uh those had intellectual disabilities, women, uh, where basically they just need they they could do uh physically everything on their own. They just mainly needed like supervision. And and I remember that and I did that for I did that for four years and and then I, you know, just getting into so it was just a blessing to be able to administer and pour into them. And they poured into me too. And um so that's how I got started, and then um in 2013 um I had gone to uh I had uh knew that I felt God wanted me to become a missions associate. And and it was I felt that God wanted me to be a missions associate with um with a special touch industry. And so I did. I I filled out paperwork and got through the process to become a missions associate. And then then um in 2015, it was I kind of did like a reboot, kind of starting again because I wasn't I wasn't it was new to me, so I wasn't really doing the the budget raising like I was supposed to. Sure. And so then I started, he let us start over, and so I did. And um, yeah, and so here I am.

Mac 29:32

You know, Nilda, Nilda, there are a few things that you just narrated that stand out to me. Um one is you talked about the worship that you experienced at special touch uh ministry and how free it was. And what's interesting is that experience you had comports with my experience um worshiping alongside individuals with disabilities. We have a group of um adults who worship with us um on the weekends occasionally, and they just worship so freely, so passionately, honestly, quite frankly, more passionately and freely than most adults. And it's like, man, we have so much to learn from these folks because everybody else is too self-conscious and like thinking about how I might look or appear.

Anna 30:26

Yeah.

Mac 30:26

Anna, you narrated like, yeah, man, I kind of walked out and felt dry. Tell that story a little bit.

Anna 30:31

Yeah, yeah. I was leading worship a couple weeks ago, and um, the set was it was a great worship set, but you know, sometimes the congregation comes in tired or they're maybe not quite ready to engage. And um, this group of people that Max said came in a song late, um, but they always are in the front row, and they just started worshiping like so expressively, and I was instantly rejuvenated in my spirit. So um yeah, I totally can see where you're coming from. Like the freedom that they have to just express themselves in worship, and the way that that's contagious, at least for me, that was my experience. Like it just I left that worship top being like, Oh my goodness, God, you did something so cool.

Mac 31:11

Yeah, they have something to teach us, they're modeling something for us that we need to grow into. Yeah. Which leads to the second thing that stood out to me. As you narrated your story, you you talked about how God had to deal with some pride in your heart because you looked at other people who had a more severe disability, and God sort of, and and maybe that like contributed to an attitude of pride or superiority that God had to sort of uh gently point out to you. And I just think that's another area to pause and for our listeners to lean in, um, that might be surprising that someone who has a disability could like maybe have an attitude of superiority to someone else who has a uh more severe disability. I think one of the things that blocks um interpersonal reciprocal relationships with people of disability disabilities is that attitude in our hearts. Yeah. And I just think it's it's such a good learning lesson to go. If God dealt with you in that area, imagine how much more he might have to deal with someone who's listening who doesn't have a disability relating to someone who does. I think there's a lesson there for all of us.

Anna 32:26

Yeah. And then oh go ahead.

Mac 32:30

Well, and then there's just the final thing that stands out about your story, at least to me, as I was listening, is that it started with you receiving the love and care of a ministry with special touch, and then eventually it led to you participating and giving yourself away. And I also think there's something really beautiful about that because so many people I know uh orient to church uh in the first phase. What can I receive? And they never graduate into the second phase that you've modeled, which is okay, having received this love and care, I now want to participate in extending that to other people through service and love.

Nilda 33:16

Yeah, it it it's yeah, it's true. Sometimes, you know, we're we're sponges. That's what we're supposed to be, sponges and sponges. If you just keep it in, they start, they get start to stink. And so it's true.

Mac 33:30

Don't be a we're sponges, but don't be a stinky sponge.

Anna 33:34

Stinky, dirty sponge. Don't be a stinky sponge. Squeeze it.

Mac 33:39

Yeah, you gotta get filled up and then squeezed and filled up and squeezed, otherwise you start to stink.

Nilda 33:44

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and so that's yeah, so it it's you know, we we receive to give, you know, that's we want to pour out, and um, so that's what you know, that's what I I I think I thank the Lord that he's able to use me to be able to to pour out and to receive too.

Mac 34:08

Yeah. I want to shift gears for a moment. I want to first just pause and say thank you so much for sharing vulnerably and courageously um some really sacred parts of your story with us. And I just I have so much respect for you and I'm just so grateful that our listeners get to hear your story. In this series, one of the things we're putting our finger on again and again is moving beyond inclusion and considering places where we experience genuine belonging. And I just wonder for you, what ways like can you relate to that distinction between just being included and experiencing real belonging as someone with a disability? And how have you, as someone with a disability, been part of communities where it feels sort of limited to inclusion in ways that are maybe hurtful or harmful to you?

Nilda 35:05

Sure. Um, yeah, there's there is a quite a big difference, you know, inclusion. Oh yeah, you can be here and we'll we'll minister to you kind of thing. Uh you know, we'll minister to you and we'll take care of you can, you know, however it's a okay when it comes to inclusion, that's different because then you're like, hey how can you we work together? Yeah, how can you contribute to that? And and that's and I've experienced and I still do experience. I'll be honest, there's times I still I still do experience the oh okay, that's gl I'm glad you're here. That's great. But you know, we'll we'll just minister to you and like you know I can get I can help too, uh you know. Yeah, um and um however, you know, and I the church like the church that I attend uh now. Um I'm thankful that um I'm able to be a part of um I've been a part of the choir when the choir is going on. Uh not right now, but um and there's kids worship that happens and so I've been a part of that, you know, a leadership team. And so that's been a real that to me that's inclusion. Yeah, because they're allowing they're wanting to me, they're allowing me to use, they see the the gifts and God, you know, they're allowing me to use my gifts, you know, and seeing beyond. To me, that's seeing beyond the disability.

Mac 36:53

Yeah, I hear you saying there's a difference, the difference you've experienced is being in part of an environment where they're ministering to you rather than being part of an environment where they minister with and alongside of you. Um I I'm wondering if you can take us a little bit deeper into that first experience when you've been part of a community or had relational exchanges where it feels like someone is saying, Oh, I'm glad you're here. Now what can I do for you? How does that make you feel on the inside? What impact does that have on you?

Nilda 37:31

Well, I I I was just thinking about something this morning just yesterday and this morning, kind of kind of along those lines, is I'll give you this example. You can tell me if I'm in the right direction or not. But so like people when I'm doing something or reaching for something or trying to get something, you know, working on something. And something uh someone comes to comes up to me and is like, oh, do you need some help? I said, No, I'm good, thank you. No, I'm I'm good, thank you. I got it. Oh, are you sure? I'm like, no, I'm good, thank you. That that's irritating when it's like, oh, are you sure? I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm sure. You know, and and I actually just had that. I I love love them dearly. Just I had that happen the other day. Someone asking me like three times, are you sure you don't love it? I'm like, no, I I'm good, thank you. So I you know, so that's kind of I don't know if if that kind of answers that, but to me, that's like really I I I'm okay, you know, I I can get this, you know.

Mac 38:40

Yeah, because it's it's undercutting your own ability to do things. It's almost like selling you short. And I'll just confess to you, there have been times like with my son Griffin, um, he is 11 years old, he has Down syndrome and autism, and we care for him daily in lots of in lots of ways. And yet there's still patterns that we can get into, I've noticed, where we're like doing something for him. And then sometimes an outsider will come in and just expect him to do it, and we're like, wow, he did that. And here we've been doing it for him. Um, my wife Josie, this was probably like, I don't know, within the last year, so it wasn't recent, but within the last year, she took him to the dentist. And at the end, the I don't know what the name is, the dental hygienist or whoever's working with with him, um, prompted him. They had like this little like chest uh full of toys or something like that that for kids after they make it through. Because let's face it, the dentist isn't fun. So yeah, but in at the end, she just kind of said to Griffin in a normal um adult voice, hey Griffin, go pick out a toy in the in the in the chest or whatever. And I think both Josie and I, I wasn't there, but Josie was, and she thought in her brain, like, he's not gonna understand that. Like, you've gotta repeat it, or you know, like it's gotta be more accessible. And without, like, maybe it was just in a good moment. I don't know. But like he heard her, walked right over there and grabbed a toy, like yeah, kind of surprising her a little bit. And I just think as a parent who is raising someone with a disability, to kind of get after what you're talking about, like keeping that filter on at all times that like um doing something for someone else that they are not only capable of doing, but want to do is something we be have to be intentional uh about. In fact, I believe that people are often way more capable than we give them credit to. And we have to be on guard and cautious about undercutting that.

Anna 40:51

Yeah. Yeah, that kind of oh, go ahead, Nelda.

Nilda 40:54

No, no, go ahead.

Anna 40:55

I no, I'm just saying I yeah, no, I think that kind of reminds me. Um, my oldest daughter has a severe intellectual disability. And uh this fall she went on her first camp, like a youth camp retreat, and um I came with her to kind of just you know, maybe I was mommying mamaing too much, but I just kind of wanted to help. Probably. Um, anyway, before you went, she wanted to get a new Bible, so she got like a new Bible and fun pens and how she was just so excited about it all. And um, we're in the the dorms with all her friends, and I noticed that she gets her Bible out. I'm like, oh, that's really cool. Um, you know, and my oldest daughter, she can't read, I think past a kindergarten grade level, right? So she's opening the Bible and she gets her highlighters out. She's just like going to town on this Bible. And there's part of me that's like, man, I know she can't comprehend and she's probably not even reading it. I should probably go and help her. Whatever. I decided to go to the bathroom first. Went to the bathroom, I came back out, and there's Jayla still hiding her Bible. But now the every girl in the room had their Bibles out and they were reading them and they were talking about what they were reading in their Bible. And I just had this moment like, man, sure, I could have gone over and corrected, or like, hey, what are you you should know what you're doing? But then it would have missed the opportunity for Jayla's, you know, desire to know God in whatever capacity that means for her to influence the entire room full of middle school girls.

Mac 42:18

You know, I love that story.

Anna 42:20

Yeah.

Nilda 42:20

Yeah, that's awesome.

Mac 42:22

Well, I think you've put your finger on something that I definitely want to hold on to, and I hope our community can, that when we are welcoming individuals with disabilities there who are an essential part of our community, our primary orientation isn't what can we do for you, but it's how can you join us in what we're doing together.

Nilda 42:45

Yes.

Mac 42:46

And I love that.

Nilda 42:47

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause one of the things, yeah, I was looking, you know, because I was looking over the questions and you were talking about something things that I seen that you know me that are not helpful and things and like what's really neat is there's people with disabilities, other people with disabilities that come to church too, with where I where I attend. And um, you know, sometimes I see where it's kind of like I I don't like I think of one my one friend who is he is in a wheelchair, he has a cerebral palsy, and he's blind also. And so, you know, me, I'll talk to somebody, you know, I'll go up and talk to you. Yeah, you know, I will, I I mean, yeah. And uh he's more uh, you know, stand back, but I understand, but if you talk to him, he he talks fine. Um, and just tell some people when with me, they'll talk to me, but him it's kind of like they're kind of and then I turn I'm almost like, what the heck? That gets me. I'll be in my head, I'm like, why can't they why do they feel funny about him? But that's like um and And sometimes the overlooking I think that's a big thing. That's that guy that I kind of and I don't know if you can have seen this you know as a parent, um, but the overlooking of people in the in the church.

Mac 44:17

Yeah, so say more about that. How have you experienced um being overlooked?

Nilda 44:23

Well, I I'll use my like my one friend who who who who's visually and physically impaired, you know, he you know, a lot of times he can't get you know out of the church by himself. And sometimes people I've seen it where they just I'm like, where's so-and-so? Oh, he's still in the church. I'm like, is somebody they can get him? And and it's like, however, I'll be honest, and this was where the empowering, I think, uh kind of goes because then after a while uh I asked him, I said, Can you hear people that are around you? And he's like, Yeah, I hear them talking. I said, Well, then maybe you can speak up and say, Hey, can someone help me? Oh, you know, so but you know, so that's like it's but yeah, that that kind of gets me too.

Mac 45:20

It's like yeah, it's almost like this. Yeah, it's almost like this friend of yours uh who is blind and physically impaired has been overlooked for so long and so consistently that he's perhaps doesn't know how to exercise his voice in asking for help.

Nilda 45:41

Yep. I never thought, yeah, yes, I think that's exactly what it was. And now he's gotten better though. He's gotten a lot better. Where he's like, especially like he won't know somebody's, and then I'll start. If I see somebody, I won't, I'll purpose, I purposely will not ask, hey, so can you push so no, because I'll let I'll say, Hey, how are you? So he can know that someone's there, and then he can ask.

Mac 46:04

Yeah. Yeah. And I I I hear underneath this part of what you're saying, too, is that we tend to relate to people on our own terms. So not everybody with a disability is going to relate the same way or even have the same capacity for interaction. And if we go in with like a preconceived idea of what we are looking for or what that type of interaction needs to be like, it can very much limit us from meeting someone where they're actually at. And as I've been, as I'm listening to you, it I almost kind of um am visualizing like a continuum of engagement. And so on the far end of the spectrum, in terms of barriers, I'm seeing just like overlooking people with disabilities, which we see throughout the gospels. I mean, there are times when people are rebuking people with disabilities who are calling out for Jesus because they're being over, they're they're not considered important enough of Jesus' attention. So they're being overlooked, they're being silenced and hushed. Once we get beyond, oh yeah, overlooking is not the heart of Jesus, we can create environments of inclusion, but sort of the the default in terms of engagement is is sort of how do I help and serve you, the person with a disability? And that's an improvement so far as it goes from being from simply overlooking that person. But I think what we're trying to name in this series, and I hear you giving voice to through your personal experiences, is uh being ministered to is very different than having people relate to me as a human being with someone with something to contribute.

Nilda 47:44

Exactly.

Mac 47:45

And I want our church to be moving towards that third category. Yeah, right?

Nilda 47:52

Yeah, because yeah, yeah, exactly. And like, you know, I do I and I I still experience that with the the overlook and being overlooked and kind of things, although I I'll speak up more.

Mac 48:11

I mean, I'll speak up, but there'll be times where I you know I'm like, okay, yeah, you will speak up, and that's why I I mean you've got like this tenacity that I love about you, Nilda. And and so you kind of push in and elbow your way into these spaces. And and what I'm kind of thinking is, but what about all the individuals with disabilities who maybe don't have that underlining tenacity uh or courage? And what are we missing out on from those people, right?

Anna 48:39

Exactly.

Mac 48:40

And so I wonder one thing we touched on was that like it seems as though individuals with disabilities embody worship in a way that the rest of us, quite frankly, need to learn how to do. I'm wondering what other themes or things would you name that you think the church might be missing out on if we learned or spent more time alerning and attending to our friends with disabilities.

Nilda 49:04

You hit the word right there. Because be a friend. Yeah. Friend. You'll know that's the only way you'll know the treasure is if you decide to friend someone with a disability and you take the time to get to know.

Anna 49:21

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's interesting because friendship is a two-way street. Yep. You know, and I think I mean I just think of, you know, a friend that I've made later in life. Kind of our friendship kind of just started because I needed advice, really, and I was going through a really hard season. And it felt one-sided for a while. And then all of a sudden, I I remember getting a call one day and she called me, Hey, and I'm I'm going through this hard time. I just want to talk about it. I want prayer. And it's like something just kind of switched in our dynamic. It wasn't just, hey, I need something from you. It was, oh, I have something you want too. And it like that just it's belonging, I think. I think that's I think that if you can name it, I think you're right. I think friendship and not just thinking, oh, what can I offer this person with a disability? Because the reality is, is they have as much to offer you as you think you have to offer them, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Mac 50:15

Nilda, I know Nilda, I know one of the things you're super passionate about is special touch ministry. And you've alluded to uh what a role it's played in your own life and how you eventually were sort of called into a place of serving and even leading there. Um, we have several families in our community that have loved ones who have disabilities. And I just imagine maybe this ministry has piqued their curiosity. So could you tell us a little bit more about that and how um those who are interested might reach out or get involved?

Nilda 50:51

Sure. Um, so special touch ministry has been around actually for 43 years, and it it is um it um it has uh um was started by um a couple and their name was uh Charlie and Debbie Trevers. Um Charlie has since gone to be with the Lord um 21 2021. And it's they have uh different aspects of the ministry, and one of their main uh evangelistic arm is a summer getaway. And that getaway, I'm gonna touch on that a lot because um so the summer getaway is held in seven different states, and it's a one-week camp like retreat um from Monday through Friday, and it um is for those with all disabilities, and the way that it's structured is um there is a schedule, it's a green and a yellow schedule, a green schedule, yellow schedule, and the green schedule all the activities of the chapel recreation is all geared towards those with intellectual disabilities. Okay, so the morning chapel that they would have is like um kind of like almost not quite as low as as a children's church, but kind of more like almost like a middle school youth group kind of a feel. And um and then the recreations that the recreation that they have is a structured a structured um event versus um for those with uh intellectual disabilities. And then um there's the yellow schedule and the yellow schedule is for those with physical disabilities only. So intellectually they they're they're sound, they sound like so. And and then their recreation time is more of an open rec or they're pretty free to do what they want, but there's games, however, the games that they have um that we have for that yellow schedule is usually like a board games or think um thinking, more of a you know, intellectual thinking kind of a game. Um uh so you know, I had mentioned that I was a caregiver, but then for two years I also was did the rec, the rec um for the yellow for the yellow schedule. So I did that too. Um and so then at night um we have a main service for everybody. And there's there's a speaker and everybody comes together for the main service. So yeah, and so you know, there are people that come there and that's their first exposure to Jesus, you know, and they might come and what we want we want them to have a good time, yes, but we want that to be pointing them to who loves them the most, and that's Jesus. I love that. So that's so that's a Monday through Friday. Um, and there is um there's a cost to that. Um for those with physical disabilities, let's say they they need to have one-on-one care. They they would need to provide their own caregiver, uh someone to come with them to be able to do, you know, to provide the care for them when if they need one-on-one hands-on.

Anna 54:42

Sure.

Nilda 54:43

Yeah. Um, and then, but then the ones, so then the ones that come as a uh a volunteer as a caregiver, they would be people or we would be people that um work with individuals that um usually intellectual disability, but they can take care of themselves.

Practices: Friendship Agency Shared Life

Mac 55:03

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean it's a it's a robust undertaking to have this program running in seven states week-long a retreat with two tracks, one for you know physical disabilities, the other one for a cognitive one, and all that make that's a that's a big undertaking. Um I'm so glad you're a part of that. One of the things we love to do, we end every episode with on praxis. We call it praxis time because it it points to the word practice. We never want our listeners to just kind of listen to a conversation and then walk away. We always want to give them things that they can do or try on in response to the conversation that they've listened to. So I'm just wondering if you could maybe help our listeners imagine what they could do. What's a practice that they could try on after listening to this conversation?

Nilda 55:58

It's just to be a friend, to not be afraid. To not yeah, not be afraid to just say hi and get to know someone with a different disability with a disability because it could really lead into something special that God couldn't open up. So I might that's the big thing is to just be a friend to someone.

Mac 56:26

So one uh really practical thing our listeners could do, having listened to this conversation, is to move towards someone with a disability with the desire to establish a friendship rooted in, as Anna you named, reciprocity or mutuality.

Anna 56:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Mac 56:46

Anna, what would you say? Any practices?

Anna 56:49

Well, I feel like Neilda took mine.

Mac 56:51

Okay.

Anna 56:51

Um sorry.

Nilda 56:52

No, I'm just teasing.

Anna 56:54

Um yeah, I think I was thinking the same thing, uh, friendship. I think everybody listening knows at least one person, either with a physical or intellectual disability. Um, so maybe your practice this week is just to do one thing that l levels that playing field a little bit. Maybe it's you opening up and being vulnerable with them. Um, I think sometimes our own anxiety stops us from reaching across the table from someone who's different than us. So um maybe trying to put that aside and just do one thing, whether it's church or on Sunday morning or school or something throughout the week that um would help you engage in a mutual friendship with somebody.

Mac 57:32

Yeah, I might deepen that uh by uh giving a little more access to how to do that. Yeah. One thing I've noticed um in parenting Griffin as a like conduit to friendship is not only meet them where they are, but take interest in the thing they're interested in.

Anna 57:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Mac 57:50

And so I think maybe someone might go, okay, but fine, like make a friend. How do I do that? I just think as a default, the way in is to meet them where they're at and then take interest in what they're interested in, let them determine what your interaction should look like. Give them agency. Yeah.

Anna 58:08

With JL, that'd be cats. You talk to her about cats. My oldest.

Mac 58:11

Hot dog buns with mustard, I've learned. She loves that.

Anna 58:14

My oldest loves hot dogs and mustard.

Mac 58:16

Um, I'm surprised you didn't say this, Anna. Yeah. Uh kind of an oversight on your part, if I'm gonna be honest, is learn from individuals with disabilities how to worship. Yeah. That seems like it would benefit you. So if you're part of our church and you're that you're that guy who every time Anna comes out to lead worship, who's standing there with your hands in your pockets, watching other people sing, knock it off. Um, look up front to that front row and learn how to worship like them.

Anna 58:45

Yep.

Mac 58:45

Because God is taking great delight in that front row. Um 100%. Yeah.

Anna 58:52

Love that.

Mac 58:52

And then I might say as a practice, I really like that idea of um we kind of talked about that spectrum from overlooking to serving to serving alongside. And I want to say, as like a practice, um maybe try to invite people into the thing you're doing rather than do something for them.

Anna 59:14

Love that.

Mac 59:16

So, hey, we're doing this. Do you want to join us rather than do you need help from me? Um, I think could be a good, a good practice moving forward. So make a friend, learn how to worship, and come alongside going, do you want to join us? Do you want to contribute with us?

Nilda 59:34

Yeah. Yes. Because you'll be a surprise. We do. So many of us do. We wanna, we wanna uh be able to contribute.

Closing And Next Series Teaser

Mac 59:43

Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Nilda, for joining us uh for this conversation today. It's been so great to connect with you again. Yes, and I want to thank our listeners too for tuning in. Um, exciting news for our listeners for our next episode. We're gonna have Katie Igg back with us. She'll be back from maternity leave and we'll be kicking off a brand new series. So stay tuned, and we will see you next time.

Anna 1:00:12

God bless.

Mac 1:00:13

All right, take care, Nilda.

Anna 1:00:14

Thanks, Nilda. Thank you so much. Praxis is recorded and produced at Cross Point Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspoint WI.com. If you have any questions, comments, or have any suggestions for future topics, please feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.