Navigating Holiday Tensions

Holiday season or pressure cooker? Between the nonstop events, gift budgets, and Hallmark-level expectations, December can intensify everything—joy and grief, laughter and loneliness, unity and old wounds. We get candid about why family dynamics spike this time of year and map out a practical way to move through it with grace and truth.

We start by naming the hidden currents: idealized scripts that make real life feel lacking, grief that returns on anniversaries, and the logistics of blended schedules that stress even strong relationships. Then we dig into family systems—the unwritten rules, predictable roles, and the “togetherness force” that pressures us to go along to get along. When beliefs diverge, a comment about politics or health can secretly ask, “Are you still one of us?” Instead of cutting off or complying, we offer a better path: emotional maturity as being defined and connected at the same time.

You’ll hear clear, usable tools: how to set boundaries that serve relationship (not as excuses to disappear), how to listen deeply when your blood pressure spikes, and how to shift from fixing others to researching your own reactions. We look to Jesus as our model for calm clarity under pressure—from the temple at twelve to his composed presence before Pilate—showing that differentiation doesn’t require defensiveness.

Walk away with a simple holiday plan: decide your values in advance, notice your body’s triggers, choose healthier modes of communication, and prepare one-to-one questions to build real connection with each person. Assume everyone else will be who they’ve always been; focus on the one variable you can control—how you show up. If you can grow your maturity even a notch, you’ll feel it not only around the table but in your marriage, parenting, friendships, and work.

If this conversation helps, share it with a friend, subscribe for future episodes, and leave a quick review so more people can find the show. What’s one boundary you’ll set to protect connection this year?

Links

Navigating Grief During the Holidays - Praxis Episode

How to Slow Down When Life Speeds Up - Blog Post

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Lighthearted Eggnog Banter
• 6:10 Naming Holiday Stressors And Expectations
• 16:45 Grief, Loneliness, And Emotional Weight
• 27:05 Family Complexity And Immature Patterns
• 40:10 Unspoken Rules And Roles We Inherit
• 52:35 Value Clashes And “Are You One Of Us?”
• 1:05:10 Emotional Maturity: Defined And Connected
• 1:18:20 Jesus As A Model For Family Tensions
• 1:31:40 Boundaries That Serve Relationship

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:02

Welcome to Practice, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. Today, we're going to take a break from our current series on mental models for missional discipleship to talk about something a little more seasonal, the holidays. This time of year can be full of joy and excitement, gratitude, celebration, friends, family. But if we're honest, I think the holidays can also be really difficult and challenging. They can create stress, they can surface complicated emotions, they can produce relational tension. So today we're hitting pause to talk about all things holidays, why they're often so hard, and how we can move through this season, especially in our relationships, in a way that reflects Jesus. Grounded in love, full of grace and truth.

SPEAKER_04: 0:59

Well, welcome everyone. My name is Mac. I'm Josiah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02

And I'm Katie.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03

Well, good to be with you guys. I have a holiday question for you, both. And it's this How do you feel about eggnog?

SPEAKER_03: 1:17

I mean, I wouldn't chug a glass, but I do appreciate it like in other things.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23

Do you know people who chug glasses of eggnog?

SPEAKER_03: 1:25

I feel like I've seen people just drink straight up eggnog.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29

What do you mean straight up?

SPEAKER_03: 1:30

Like just drinking a glass of eggnog.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32

Well, I think that's what you usually do like.

SPEAKER_03: 1:34

Yeah, I don't like doing that. I don't like that. But I've had like an eggnog latte or like a certain cocktail with eggnog, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:42

Okay. So it's more of like infused with other things.

SPEAKER_03: 1:45

Then I can appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:47

But I feel like it's too much on its own.

SPEAKER_00: 1:49

Okay. I love eggnog. Really? It is my I look forward to it every year.

SPEAKER_03: 1:55

Do you like it so much you chug it?

SPEAKER_04: 1:57

What's this chug business?

SPEAKER_00: 1:59

Chugging contest. Chugging contest of eggnog. Staff Christmas party. No, but I love it. And I love finding it trying to find the one that tastes the best. I I've heard of people they can make their own. It sounds like a really big pain. And I also feel like if you see it being made, maybe you wouldn't like it as much because it's tons of egg yolks and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03: 2:22

Have you made it?

SPEAKER_00: 2:23

No.

SPEAKER_04: 2:23

So what's your favorite? It sounds like you're kind of a connoisseur. Um what's your go-to?

SPEAKER_00: 2:29

There's two of them. Actually. One is uh I think it's the the Oberweiss brand. In the glass. In the glass. You know, they they do milk and stuff too. Um theirs is really good. Okay. And it comes in a big glass container. Um another one that's a cheap one that I think is probably just meant for mixing and alcohol, but it's the Southern Comfort brand. That one's really good.

SPEAKER_04: 2:55

Okay, I want to press on this further, Josiah. You're I didn't know this about you. Um so how when do you start drinking eggnog? Like what time of are you already consuming eggnog? And like how frequently are we uh engaging with eggnog uh throughout the holiday season?

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

So I don't I I'm not gonna like keep it around in the house. So I I look forward to it. I'm not gonna buy it the first time I see it. So I'm gonna look forward to it at uh at like a time when I'm gonna have it. So it's probably like a few times throughout the holiday season that I'll get it and yeah. But so yeah, I'm not like drinking it all the time.

SPEAKER_04: 3:34

A few times where you'll purchase a bottle of it. And so then but then we're nursing that over the course of a like a week or two, right?

SPEAKER_00: 3:42

Yeah, or I'll you know, get it when I'm gonna be with people that enjoy it with.

SPEAKER_03: 3:46

The holiday party.

SPEAKER_00: 3:47

Yeah, that's definitely one of the things in the holiday season I look forward to most. Wow. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03: 3:54

Yeah, I didn't either. Yeah. What about you, Mac?

SPEAKER_04: 3:56

Um I neither have an aversion nor am I obsessed with it like you are just well, you're not obsessed. There's this woman who used to go to our church who tries to get it year-round. Like she loves it. And uh it's just this thing I knew about her, and she all she could drink it every day. And that to me is like wow. That's I think I would it would lose its luster if I had to.

SPEAKER_00: 4:19

It's overdoing it.

SPEAKER_04: 4:20

So I tend to drink one glass of eggnog, a small glass, every year. And it's a sort of a tradition for me that I had growing up with my dad, and that is during gift opening. So we like the Oberweiss, and every year when we open gifts as a family, we'll each pour a glass and do a little nutmeg over the top, like shave a little nutmeg over the top.

SPEAKER_00: 4:44

It's a fresh nutmeg too, that makes a difference.

SPEAKER_04: 4:46

Yeah, and it's not a lot, it's just probably like four or five sips, and that's enough. Like I'm good.

SPEAKER_03: 4:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 4:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 4:52

There you go.

SPEAKER_04: 4:52

Yep. If I really got aggressive, I might do it for a second day in a row, but then I'm done. Like I can't keep doing this.

SPEAKER_03: 4:58

Have you ever had it with coffee?

SPEAKER_04: 4:59

No. Okay. Yeah, eggnog lattes are good.

SPEAKER_03: 5:02

Really good.

SPEAKER_00: 5:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 5:03

Back in the cloud. Well, maybe that I could drink coffee.

SPEAKER_00: 5:05

Yeah, maybe I'll try that this year. But do you know something I don't have any time for? Is alternative milk eggnogs. They're disgusting. Okay. Almond milk, eggnog. For those of you who are listening or lactose intolerant and you need to do that, great.

SPEAKER_03: 5:20

But I'm not gonna but by definition, is that eggnog?

SPEAKER_00: 5:24

Well, yeah, it's like, well, they'll call it like almond nog or something like that. That's ridiculous. I'm just saying, like, I just don't have any time for it. It's not thick and creamy enough. It doesn't taste the same and it's not worth it to me. Yeah. It's like, oh, it's lower calorie, it's lower this. That I mean, I'm having like a few glasses a year. I don't need to worry, I'm not gonna worry about that.

SPEAKER_04: 5:45

I also don't jump on like the oh, eggnog McFlurry or whatever. Like, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 5:49

Like sounds really good. Okay. Eggnog ice cream? I could go with that. I mean, it's basically ice cream.

SPEAKER_03: 5:57

Like the eggnog version of a shamrock shake.

SPEAKER_00: 6:01

Oh man. Now I okay, I'm kind of craving it now.

SPEAKER_04: 6:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 6:04

Well, now you could you could just put eggnog in an ice cream maker, probably.

SPEAKER_04: 6:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:09

It's probably the right ingredients.

SPEAKER_04: 6:11

Well, now that we've activated your addiction to eggnog, um, and speaking of McFlurries, you know, let's get into today's episode. It is a holiday episode.

SPEAKER_00: 6:21

Yes, it is. I hope right now Adam's playing jingle-y Christmas music in the background as we're transitioning to that being so great.

SPEAKER_03: 6:29

As long as it's not jingle ball rock.

SPEAKER_00: 6:31

Well, now he has to do jingle balls. Yeah, but he's gotta see it. Yeah, so we want to take some time in today's episode to talk about why the holidays can be difficult. Um, as wonderful, as wonderful as the holidays can be, they're also really challenging.

SPEAKER_03: 6:47

They're not all eggnog lattes.

SPEAKER_00: 6:49

No, they're not. Not every Christmas is chestnuts roasting on an open fire with your family and friends cuddled up close and drinking eggnog or hot cocoa and um everything's bliss, like it's a Hallmark movie, right?

SPEAKER_04: 7:03

Not to derail us, but I'm not a big fan of chestnuts. So let me just let the record show.

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

I can't remember the last time I ate one.

SPEAKER_03: 7:10

I don't think I've ever eaten one.

SPEAKER_00: 7:11

But yes, it's not all. Yeah, it's not all that. And uh, although we might have a few moments like that, um, sometimes we can idealize what it looks like and set ourselves up for a lot of disappointment. Um, they can be really stressful and challenging for a lot of reasons, right? Many of us go home for the holidays and and as blissful as we want it to be, it's often a minefield of dynamics that that we don't have to engage on a regular basis. So we thought it'd be helpful to spend some time just unpacking this, exploring what it looks uh what it could look like to engage with family this season in a Jesus-looking way. So let's just start by naming some of the variables that make holidays challenging. And I'll go first. I think the the first variable is just that there's this pressure that goes along with the holiday season. Yes. Right? It's a it's a time when most of us would would uh pretty openly say that it's it's a time we would want to slow down, spend more time with family, but everything around us is just speeding up, right? It gets way busier, there's more social gatherings, you have the shopping, um, traveling, all these other things. There's a financial stress that that goes along with it. And then there's these expectations to try to make things like the Hallmark movie that uh that often lead to even more disappointment. And so, yeah, so there's a there's a pressure in a time when everything should be slowing down and creating more space for family and friends. Uh, there's a pressure that actually like ramps things up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 8:45

So speaking of the gift buying, we have a lot of extended family, like aunts, uncles, nieces, tons of nieces and nephews. So I have a Christmas gift spreadsheet that I get out of here. And I pulled it out a couple weeks ago because Black Friday deals are starting early and we got a lot of people to buy for. Gotta hunt the deals. Um so I feel that. I feel that. Yeah. There's this pressure to like we see it's like I picture in my mind like the holiday gathering, and we want that, but the thing we see in the commercial or the holiday movies, but what we don't see is all the the hustle behind it that goes into making those magical moments. Like there's ends up being so much pressure and so much energy spent on trying to get there that I totally agree. We can almost lose the joy and the like slowness of the season.

SPEAKER_04: 9:37

Yeah. And the volume of it is really high. So you think about gifts, and most I have to buy a lot of gifts every year. Um, and I love buying, I love giving gifts. Like I I really enjoy it. But it takes a lot of thought and intentionality to give a good gift, and then you have to uh find where to get it. And the wrapping I suck at. I'm like the worst person to wrap a gift, it's abysmal. Like people can tell which gift I'm giving just by looking at the wrapping job. Like it's that bad. Um, but then there's lots of gatherings. It feels like everybody needs to have a Christmas party, and so you know, you know what I mean? Like, goodness gracious, there's like the CrossFit Christmas party, and then this group of friends has a party, and and so you then right, and so there's all these things, and the school programs you guys kill me every December. The concerts, it just ramps up, and so we feel that, and it feels like almost in order to do the thing we crave, which is to slow down and be intentional, we have to be countercultural. You have to have a plan to do that. And I'll make a little plug. Josie wrote a blog post a couple of years ago. I hell I remember just because I helped her title it, but it's how to slow down when life speeds up. And so, you know, maybe jump over to the to the blog part of praxis and and take that in to see if it helps you figure out a plan to head into the holidays so that you don't just get swept up into the the busyness current. Uh Josiah, you mentioned finances, and I think this is probably one of the more challenging seasons, more stressful seasons financially because of the gift giving. Um, like I know we spend more in December than probably any other month, and it's not just the gifts. You think about all those parties, and oftentimes you don't want to show up empty-handed, and so you're bringing food and all of it just adds up really quickly, and that can be a source of stress that works against the the smile that we're supposed to have during the Christmas season.

SPEAKER_03: 11:36

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 11:38

I think you know, adding to this conversation of what makes it difficult, I really just think there's kind of an emotional current that doesn't match the season. You know, from from the moment the commercials start coming out full of smiles and you know, and the movies start playing, the Hallmark movies, where everything feels peaceful and in place, right? There's kind of this sense in which Christmas is full of joy and gratitude and and thankfulness and laughter and all that. And I'll just say, like, especially pastoring people for so many years, like that just doesn't match how many people are. I would go so far as to say I know a lot of people, December is actually the hardest month for them. It's the most lonely month. And it's because there's this X this gap between what's expected, it's supposed to be magical and meaningful, and reality, that it's hard and full of grief and and pain. And I I just think that adds a weight for people. I I shared last year when we had your mom on the podcast. Um our family has experienced some of that. Like my grandfather on my mom's side, so her dad died on Christmas Day, totally unexpected. Um, my grandma, much not the same year, years later, uh, died on the 26th of December. Um, so we were anticipating. I mean, she was kind of declining and we knew it was coming, but but that I still I was very close with her and I still kind of sit with that on the 26th of December. And my dad had his seizure and brain tumor removed during the month of December, right before Christmas. I just I get it. You know, I get it. And I would say I've noticed this thing where uh uh kind of like when it rains, it pours with funerals. Like I can go through a season where I don't do a funeral for a long time and then have a bunch in a row and sort of reflecting on the the busy like the volume, it often comes around the holidays. I've just noticed that. Like I just did one this past Monday. Yeah, and that family is gonna have a very different Thanksgiving and and Christmas this year because that absence is gonna be felt really acutely. Yeah, you know what I mean? So I just want to acknowledge that that like there's this gap between what the season is quote unquote supposed to be and how people actually experience it. And then that added weight, if you're not experiencing experiencing the joy and gratitude, and other people are, you're like feeling the weight of disappointing or disrupting what other people want.

SPEAKER_03: 14:14

Yeah. Not only is there maybe this increased grief or loneliness or pain, but then it's even harder to be authentic about that.

SPEAKER_00: 14:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 14:23

Because everyone else is happy and you should be too.

SPEAKER_00: 14:25

Right. Yeah. And and if you have kids, it it it can compound because you feel the need to give them a Christmas or a holiday season that you think they're they're supposed to have, and then they have their expectations. Yeah. And so being able to navigate out of uh just values out of that rather than just being reactionary is um yet another way that we find ourselves uh inauthentic compared to what's actually going on.

SPEAKER_04: 14:53

Yeah, so another quick plug. I mean, we talked about Josie's blog for if you're feeling like, wow, I know that these the holidays are gonna spiral out of control in terms of pace and mention Josie's blog post. If you're in a really difficult season right now, uh, I would encourage you to go back to that episode from last year around grief, navigating grief during the holidays, where we brought um Terry Koshnick in for a conversation. She's a licensed therapist and just had so many great insights for dealing with that pain and hardship you might be living in this season.

SPEAKER_03: 15:25

Yeah, and I guess the third thing I would name, which builds on um to some extent on what you two said, is that I think just the relational reality around the holidays can be more complex than any other time of year. Um, this is probably the hardest and most challenging reason, and I think where we want to spend the rest of our time together today, engaging with family and all the relational dynamics that come with that. You know, these relationships have a tendency to bring out, unfortunately, sometimes our least mature selves, not our most mature selves. Um, and we're often in close quarters or spending more time with family around the holidays. And so I don't know. I'm curious as we kind of get into this. Do you guys have do you have stories of how um maybe how your least mature self has ever shown up during the holidays? Can we put some some handles to that?

SPEAKER_04: 16:18

Well, I'll I'll just name like yes to the complexity. You know, like home alone, the beginning of the movie where like everybody is scurrying around and it's totally chaotic. Like that can be on my side of the family the experience. We have 11, there are 11 grandkids, all Tig's age and under. So Tig is about to turn 16. Yeah um, and so and then add each set of adults to that. And it's a full house, there's lots going on. It feels like a lot of commotion. Everybody's talking, like it feels crazy at times, right? And I have memories throughout the year of just like during the holidays. One one Christmas, my oldest sister Meg called my dad a jackass, and that like ruined the night. You know what I mean? It ended up being this big thing, and I just have all sorts of like fun, funny memory, like we can laugh about them now, yeah, but in the moment, it like to piggyback on what you're naming, like there was a relational complexity that changed the dynamic and made it difficult. Like during uh, I think it was 2021, 2020 or 2021, when like COVID was underway. Yeah, I remember my parents went to Minnesota and they didn't all agree on what the social distancing should look like. And that proved to be a source of friction and tension because there were some who were like wanting to be really cautious, there were others who were feeling more like we're okay, and there was some tension around that. Um, I remember this was a few years ago. My dad, the day after Thanksgiving, decided to watch a documentary in the living room where everybody was on six-day creationism. And it was like, not everybody believes in that. And so now all of a sudden we're in there's content coming through the TV that is naturally like people have different opinions about. You know what I mean? Which by the way, I have a very theologically informed. So there's two things that continue to bubble up in my family. One is I have a very theologically informed family. Obviously, like I'm a pastor, have my master of divinity, and so on. But all of my sisters at some point have worked in a church. Um, two of them went to Bethel Seminary uh at some point. My sister graduated with her counseling degree there, and my sister Meg has some classes under her belt there. Um, my brother-in-law, one of my brother-in-laws, has his master of theology from Fuller. Uh so it's just like you get into this environment and it's not just like your people have opinions. Everybody has opinions about faith stuff, but theirs are informed opinions. And so they, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 18:56

They feel passionately. Yes. I'm guessing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 18:58

And just adding another layer, two of my sisters are therapists, one is a life coach. So you're not only stepping into like a theologically informed environment, uh, but but also like one where there's a lot of like psychological categories, and you'll get psychoanalyzed pretty quickly. I remember one year we decided to go bowling with our kids, and they ordered a bunch of pizza um during bowling, which for me was like this these don't go together super well because you're putting your hands.

SPEAKER_00: 19:32

That is true.

SPEAKER_04: 19:32

Yeah, you're putting your hands greasy.

SPEAKER_03: 19:35

We always get pizza when we bowl.

SPEAKER_00: 19:36

Well, yeah. Well, no, it isn't sorry. No, I actually really agree with you. It is the normal thing to get at a bowling alley.

SPEAKER_02: 19:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:43

But it you have to like basically wash your hands in between every bite. It's like it's not very conducive.

SPEAKER_04: 19:49

Right. And and in two different directions. One is because you don't want to have greasy fingers and not have a good hold on the ball while you're trying to like aim. But the other piece is you're sticking your fingers in these holes that who knows who else has put their fingers in these holes. That's true. And then you're going back and wanting a bite of pizza.

SPEAKER_03: 20:07

Napkins and hand sanitizer.

SPEAKER_04: 20:09

I know. So that's what I was doing. I was kind of like doing the hand sanitizer napkin thing. And my sister Anna caught that right away. She's like, What's what's going on? You scared about getting sick? Is that what's going on? I mean, she just put the pressure like, go ahead, Matt, just take a bite without doing the sanitizer. I mean, she was all over it. That's really funny. So, to your point, there are a lot of like dynamics in my family that create complexities and variables that need to be navigated.

SPEAKER_03: 20:37

Yeah, for me, I would say this really bubbled up when I was newly married. Um, so I have a lot of extended family, right? So each Christmas I have like time with my immediate family, like my mom and dad and my sister. We had time with my dad's siblings and cousins on that side and grandparents, and then another gathering with my mom's extended family. Then I married Alex, whose parents are divorced. So we have his mom's side and there, the siblings there, his dad's side, the siblings and cousins there. So when we got married, all of a sudden we had five gatherings, and they all were used to happening within the 48-hour window of Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Perfect. Like they kind of all needed to be in that actual Christmas. Um, and we lived in Madison, a lot of the gatherings were in Milwaukee, and then we had little babies, and it was just like every year it would end up being the source of tension. It was probably like the most tension we had in our marriage was every year around Christmas. And so it got complex. We were both navigating each other's expectations. We each had our own ideas of what we wanted to be doing and relaxing and being with our families. Our families had ideas of what we should be doing, and it just surfaced all this stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 21:44

Um that sounds overwhelming.

SPEAKER_03: 21:46

Yeah, it really was. And it took us really, yeah, probably five years or so to really figure out what you know, what we wanted to do and set boundaries and um, but it bubbled up a lot, you know, and it was rooted in a desire to have a yeah, a good special holiday season. But man, it really surfaced all the um all the relational complexities.

SPEAKER_04: 22:09

Yeah, I can see that. I can imagine that. That's hard.

SPEAKER_03: 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 22:13

Especially with a split family, because that just adds a whole nother um gathering, a whole nother set of dynamics, and who's getting priority between those two. And right?

SPEAKER_03: 22:22

We always do it on Christmas Day.

SPEAKER_04: 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 22:24

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04: 22:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_03: 22:25

What about you, Josiah?

SPEAKER_04: 22:27

I don't think he experiences any of this. He's just got the perfect family.

SPEAKER_03: 22:30

Yeah. Smooth sailing.

SPEAKER_04: 22:32

They're perfectly loving.

SPEAKER_00: 22:34

Yeah. No, we we've arrived, so that's pretty great. Um yeah, I think another dynamic, and maybe this can transition us too, is that uh when you you know the you have all of your your dynamics when you go home for the holidays. And many of us who don't live in the same hometown as your family, um, sort of leave and sort of branch off on your own. And when you come back home, you realize that everybody else there is still connected in the same way they were. Like uh most of my family, in fact, everybody except for me and my sister all live in the same town, at least uh and and so there's I mean, two of them live on the same street. So so they're very close, they're together all the time. Christmas is just another chance to be together. Um so us coming home, there's always a there's always like an atmosphere you feel like you have to enter that uh isn't always bad, but you feel it. I mean even just like driving back to your hometown can feel different.

SPEAKER_02: 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:42

And you you start to realize pretty quickly like uh something as small as a as a as a difference in political uh opinion, like you realize like, oh, everyone else here, everyone else here can talk very openly about politics, for instance. Uh that would just be one example. That they they all talk very openly about it because they all feel a safety that they all agree exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 24:09

And they're talking about it all the time.

SPEAKER_00: 24:11

They they're they're talking about all the time, so it's not uncomfortable for them to bring it up, and you realize like I got oh, I'm the only one who feels uncomfortable right now because um I don't know if I see it that same way. Yeah. And uh that just creates a lot of it creates a lot of um, it creates tension and or or at least within myself on how I relate to it. I don't know if you guys feel that way.

SPEAKER_04: 24:35

Well, I think what you're naming is interesting. Um, you still have family and I can relate all everyone but my parents live in the Twin Cities, and so there's some proximity that they still share, which comes with a certain connection. And I've noticed it too for Josie and I that like they actually have very like less access to my world because they don't live near me and don't visit very often. And so they have less access to like my life, what I'm doing, and so on and so forth. And then when I go back, they have closer relationships because they see each other more often, and with that familiarity comes a whole bunch of things. So you can kind of feel like on the outside looking in in some ways.

SPEAKER_02: 25:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 25:19

Which it sounds like you've experienced a little bit with some of your siblings. Um, and when you get into like dice year topics and they're just automatically aligned, it can it can feel trigger triggering.

SPEAKER_00: 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 25:32

Or provoke some anxiety. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 25:34

Yeah. Yeah. So why don't we um why don't we then sort of transition into this next part and and maybe zoom in on what is it about the the relationships within your family of origin that can make it difficult to navigate? Like like why uh why are they so difficult and why do they often sort of get the best of us? What are some of those things?

SPEAKER_03: 25:59

Yeah, I feel like every family has a set of um values and expectations of how we behave and relate, although those expectations aren't always explicit, right? Like we could kind of say un there's unspoken um expectations and values, like or unwritten rules of engagement, like grandma always brings the turkey, or those two cousins always fight, and Uncle Bobby plays mediator, and we kind of have this, and then all of a sudden someone doesn't meet the expectation. It's like, what? Grandma's not making the turkey? Like, what's happening? Um, so I think there can be a pressure to perform almost like an idealized version of the family where everyone does what they need to do to just sort of keep the peace or keep grandma happy. Uh, but that I would say that only works until it doesn't. Like there can be like let's say there's disagreement or tension or pain comes into the picture. I think these expectations can become strained. Um, and on the one hand, we can feel pressure to conform to expectations as a way of keeping the peace, like, hey, this is how things have always been, and this is just how we do it. Um but if we're honest, I think sometimes the peace that we're maintaining can come at the expense of dealing honestly with what's going on. Does that make sense? Like we have this idea of how this family has always already always operated, and that may have worked fine a couple decades ago when things were the way they were then, but people change, things change, life changes. And having like entrenched roles and expectations of how we all behave doesn't really account for the changes that life brings. Like it doesn't leave room for the real stuff of life that kind of shapes us and molds us in new ways. So all of a sudden we're coming back to our family and we're feeling the pressure of all these unwritten expectations of how we behave and how we relate. And I think there can be a gap there. Do you guys see this?

SPEAKER_04: 27:50

Yeah. Um, in Bowen family systems theory, what you're describing is called the togetherness force. And so um, it's just this idea that there's a this invisible pressure that we all feel in our relationships, and it's this pull to fit in to smooth things over to keep the peace, right? So so in Bowen's family system theory, that's called the togetherness force. There's a an emotional gravity that holds families and in the workplace, maybe teams and communities together. And it's not all bad. It's good to have a sense of unity and maybe even agreement on things and to feel secure around that. That's not a bad thing. Togetherness is essential. Um, but the there's a catch to it, and that that's when the togetherness force gets too strong, it starts to take over and we begin to trade honesty for harmony. Right? That's interesting. Which is which is what you like, we go along to get along.

SPEAKER_03: 28:47

And it feels good in some sense, I hear you saying, like the togetherness force in some ways.

SPEAKER_04: 28:51

Yeah, but until it compromises our authenticity, and then all of a sudden we stop saying what we really think or feel because we don't want to rock the boat. And so Josiah is sitting back at this gathering, and all of a sudden his siblings start talking politics, and he's like, I see it differently. Um, and he's feeling this internal pressure, right, to agree because that's what everybody does, and to disagree would disrupt that harmony. That's the togetherness force. And um, interestingly enough, um, that togetherness force just it has the tendency to swallow up the counter uh force, which is individuality. And what happens is uh uh the best way to actually get a togetherness force is to create a mature environment where people can express their individuality and stay connected at the same time, which we'll get into later. But I'm just naming hey, there's a lot of unspoken expectations that are, to your point, rooted in his history, historical ways of showing up that sort of confine us to certain roles or expectations or ways of being present that don't allow for individuality to be expressed without being highly disruptive. Which is counterproductive to the seasonal pressure we feel to promote this magical, harmonious hallmark type of a Christmas environment.

SPEAKER_00: 30:08

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how many of us, whether you're listening or around this table, feel the need to perform in order to keep peace. Like there's this performance you almost have to do going back home. Like I've gotta look like the perfect little family. We're all married wearing our matching sweaters, and we're gonna hide any parts of ourselves that don't look real pretty and only talk about how great everything is because we need everybody to think we're awesome. There's this there's this drive to perform in order to enjoy the season, and I think it's a good it's a good reminder for us, and it it I should say it's a good acknowledgement for us to say, hey, I I do feel the need to perform and I wonder what it would look like to show up more authentically um in my in my family spaces.

SPEAKER_04: 31:02

Yeah, so here's a question for you guys. Um what roles do you feel like you get put in? A predictable role do you play in your family and what roles do you notice other people playing? I'll go first, I'll just give you an example. Um so literally while we're talking, I just got a text from my sister Meg, and Meg and I are very close. Um, so I know how she experiences the holidays when we all get together. And one of the things she does not enjoy a whole lot is like sitting around with nothing to do, because that's when some of the more complex topics tend to surface and so on and so forth. And so she feels like we do much better as a family when we have activities to do and things to go like it keeps us engaged and so on. So I just got a text from her going, we're gonna go down to that third street uh at some point over the Thanksgiving weekend, which is like an indoors place where they have food and I don't know, shuffleboard and like some things to do. Just got a text. What time do you want me to um uh reserve the golf simulator? Okay. It's gonna be so fun, but that's the role that Megan, my sister Megan, takes. She's the organizer, right? Um, I noticed something this summer, um, kind of similar to what you were saying, Josiah, about like the amount of transparency uh when you live in close proximity. All three of my sisters live in Minnesota, they have a good relationship with my parents, but Josie and I see my parents the most frequently and have had the most reps with navigating tough conversations and things like that. And there was something that happened, I don't even remember what it was, something that happened this summer, and I spoke very like calmly and directly to my parents, and they responded very well. And afterwards, um, there was this comment, I can't remember which sister made it, but it was like, I that wouldn't go the same way if I did that. Um, like you seem to have some reps with them, some I don't know, relational credibility uh to be able to say or do things that wouldn't wouldn't be experienced the same way if I did that. And that alerted me, that's great, but I ideally I'd like everybody in our family to be able to do that. And it alerted to me like, oh, maybe I might end up in a role where I'm the one who has having to say the hard things. Know what I mean? Or navigate the tough conversations.

SPEAKER_03: 33:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 33:37

Um so I'd be an example.

SPEAKER_00: 33:39

Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting if I observe my family dynamics in those settings. Um my mom definitely plays the the role of making sure everybody's happy. She wants everybody to be happy. Uh having fun. It's great. Um and it's helpful to have someone who's caring about that. Um, but you can tell when it becomes an anxious response and how quickly the it'll turn if uh if people aren't having fun. Um or usually it's a it's a usually it's the act of like dismissing any negativity whatsoever. So if you're something didn't work out and it's like something some food burned or something like that, then then it's a big deal. Everybody needs to be happy. Um I can see the role that other people play in the home in the in the dynamics too. I I can definitely also notice how I show up as I definitely um stay on the outside of it all. Very careful to not over involve myself. So I'm usually um I don't want I don't feel any responsibility whatsoever for how anybody else is experiencing the the holiday dynamic, but I can tell that lots of other people do.

SPEAKER_03: 34:59

That's interesting. It's hard, I don't know, maybe I just lack self-awareness. It's hard for me to know my role. I think if anything, I would say I've always been just sort of like accommodating. Like everything's fine. I've never wanted to be like the difficult one or like assert preferences because everyone else seems to have opinions. And I'm like, even just this year, um, my cousins were texting about, hey, should we buy gifts or pick names? And there was some chatter about like, should we do it white elephant style? Should we do Secret Santa style? I'm like, you guys decide and just let me know. Like I think I've always kind of been like, just tell me where to be and it'll be good. That did come to a head a little bit when I got married and all of a sudden had all of these other right family obligations.

SPEAKER_00: 35:40

And I had to start saying like now you have other people that can see.

SPEAKER_03: 35:44

It wasn't like a yep, well, just tell me where to be and I'll be there and I'll, you know, do whatever. Um, I actually had to start um speaking up a little bit more and and that did create tension.

unknown: 35:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 35:54

And one of the things that makes this challenge that it's both external and internal pressure to conform to certain roles is that oftentimes these go back to our first formation. Um, in other words, these are well-worn um roles that we've played over the course of our entire lives. And so to choose something different is really hard. Just I you mentioned uh one of you mentioned um that oftentimes when we're with family, we revert to our most immature selves. And there's that old phrase that like your family knows how to push your buttons because they're the ones who installed them. And so it's worth reflecting on hey, what kind of role? What was my place in my family growing up? What was my role? Um, some common ones. Like, so for instance, reflecting back on my sister Meg, it's actually not surprising that she takes the lead on organizing things because she's the firstborn.

SPEAKER_02: 36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 36:47

And firstborns tend to be really like um responsible and competent, which you know what I mean? They they they they exude that type of it fits the role. So there's some other roles you might consider that maybe you've played as the good one. Uh, maybe you were the one who I don't know, embodied all that was all the all the goodness that your family wanted to be known for, right? Um, the rebel, other people fall into that category and they end up being the scapegoat, the person who's always doing or saying the wrong thing and actually becomes part of their identity. Um the caretaker, you're always the one hustling around, making sure everybody is cared for. The family therapist, you're always like tending to people's emotions, and maybe there's you're you're the comedic one, you're the you're the the funny one who's always bringing the jokes, or the star of the family, you're the high performer that everybody like looks at and says, oh man, he's like the pride and joy of our family, or she's the pride and joy of our family, the favored child. Right. It's it's it's just helpful to maybe think through what are some of the common roles that people play in their family, and then do some reflection around what roles were, what, what role was I put into and what role did other people play? I a couple of years ago, it's probably like four or five years ago, called a Zoom meeting with my sisters, and we just talked for a couple hours about how we experienced our upbringing from each of our vantage points. We all shared the same environment, but had different experiences and different points of views. And it was just such a great space where we could be honest about this type of stuff. What role did you play? Where did you feel like you chose that? Where did you feel like you were it was given to you? And one of the things my sisters told me was like, you were the golden child. There were three of us girls, you were the only boy, and my dad really wanted a boy. And so you got way more attention from him than we did. And so much of like the family energy went towards the things you were doing. And I was able to say, Yeah, I see that. And if I were to narrate honestly, some of that felt great, some of it didn't feel so great because with that attention came a whole lot of pressure. Yeah, with that time and energy came a whole lot of like expectation that I had to absorb.

SPEAKER_03: 39:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 39:13

Um, and it was just a major gift to be able to talk about that together openly and honestly, to go, hey, so where do you want to recalibrate? What expectations do we not want to continue together? Where do we want to change things? You know?

SPEAKER_03: 39:28

Yeah. That's so funny. Well, Mike, you and I sometimes talk about how we're similarly wired. And I had a cousin tell me that she saw me as that golden child when we were kids. Um she was like, Yeah, you didn't realize that. And I she brought back a memory, I barely even remember. When I was in college, she was a couple years younger than me. She was going through a hard time in high school, and her parents sent her to live with me for a week in my college apartment. Um, I was like, Yeah, I guess I don't know. I didn't think much of it. Like, we just thought we were kind of hanging out. And she's like, Yeah, no, I was going through a hard time. And they were like, Be like Katie, go stay in her apartment. It's like it feels like a lot of pressure for a college student. Um, but sometimes I I guess my point is sometimes you might not even know the role you're playing until you hear it from other people. Right. Like I'm guessing hearing that from your sister actually gave you some self-awareness that you may not have fully picked up on yourself either.

SPEAKER_04: 40:15

Oh, totally. Yeah, it was very eye-opening and it depend you have to be open. There's like a like that type of conversation takes a lot of openness and mutual respect. So it's I don't want to set listeners up to go, yeah, you're just gonna jump into those types of conversations. Like it we can't we move towards those in a certain way.

SPEAKER_00: 40:34

Yeah, my siblings would tell me that I that I was the favorite for sure. I mean they I didn't need a Zoom meeting for them to tell me that. They'll tell me that very openly. Um But the in diving into you know, not going too much into it, but into family systems theory and how those roles will um how you relate to those roles, uh, it's very often that the the the the kid who's the the favorite child um often rejects it. So there's like a a pushing against it, and I definitely feel that even when I go home, is like the the more attention I'm getting, it it's like I I feel resistant to it, like I want to back away. Um like it there's sort of like a di a discomfort with it, like when you can feel the the energy coming from that, wanting to sort of push away, and I know how and I know that about myself now enough to recognize when I'm checking out, when I'm being distant from the family, like just kind of wanting to go or not wanting to be there or um stopping engaging in conversation because of how it feels and stuff. So yeah, it's interesting to know.

SPEAKER_04: 41:49

Yeah, I think um so just to summarize, we've talked about kind of the expectations, sort of the way people show up is predictable, and there's like a history to it, which then confines us or pushes us into certain roles that we play in our family as well as other roles people play. Um, another thing that I think makes relating to family difficult in this season, and Josiah, your story alluded to this, is just that there are differences in beliefs and values, convictions and opinions. Right. I remember this was probably like five years ago around Thanksgiving time. Um, our family often shares a question for the table just to get us talking and everybody gets to share. And I think this was the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving, again, probably around 2021 or so. And my dad was like, Oh, I have a question for the table. And I I don't think he meant any harm, or maybe he thought it was gonna go well. I don't, I don't know, but he was like, What do you think of Anthony Fauci? And this was like in the heat of all the yeah, it was like in the heat. It was like the match, yeah, it was like in the heat of all that is COVID and the vaccine and mask wearing and like all of it. And and I'm not saying a family couldn't have a great discussion around that because I think you could. I think it'd be I think you could have a great conversation if everybody's showing up willing to listen and hear other points of view and learn. And but I I I remember things got a little bit heated and um not exactly the greatest start to to Thanksgiving. But I I just think, you know, Katie, you were talking about how like you leave the house. It it seems to me that there's probably different challenges for different people depending on where you sit in the family. You leave the house at a young age. Like I left the house when I was 18, went to college, then grad school. And so like all this thinking and assessment happened after I left the house, where I'm now wrestling with systems thinking and different beliefs, different values. And I'm sort of owning, I'm starting to develop my viewpoints and beliefs in a much deeper way than I did growing up. And then you come back to this space, and your parents worked really hard for 18 years to probably instill certain values and beliefs in you. You know what I mean? And shared very openly what they think and what they believe. And there's so it creates this really weird dynamic that I think is felt differently depending on if your parents are children. I think the challenge for parents is given all that they've invested in trying to instill certain values about it, I can imagine it's very difficult if all of a sudden your kids are saying things or believing things that are very different than what you gave them. And there's probably a potentially an immature response when you hear something to get upset or to sort of like go back to that role of like telling them what to believe or what to think or whatever.

SPEAKER_02: 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 44:51

Uh, and I I want to acknowledge that's probably hard if you've worked really uh spent a long time trying to invest in your kids and give them a certain framework or worldview for them to then embrace something different.

SPEAKER_03: 45:01

And we're all parents, I'm sure we're all doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_04: 45:04

Yeah. But I also think there's a challenge for the kids. Um, when they get into a space with their parents where let's say like someone something comes up that's happening in the world and there's a difference of opinion. I know for me, it's like, I already know what you think. I've heard it a million times and I don't really want to hear it again. And so for me, I'm just confessing, it's often it takes a lot of energy for me to stay curious and open-minded. Um, with my parents knowing that throughout my life, the ratio of hearing versus talking has not been the same. You know? So maybe to I guess just in encapsulate what I'm trying to say is that yeah, during the holidays, we're coming together, the historical reference point, everybody has changed to some degree and has different beliefs, values, and convictions. And there's a whole lot happening in the world that everybody has opinions about. And it's like you either are gonna have the maturity to talk about some of those things or we just avoid them because otherwise it's gonna become nuclear.

SPEAKER_03: 46:00

Totally. Yeah, I think that's so true. And I also think when you're talking about, let's say, politics or Anthony Fauci, for example, it's not on the surface, it's about politics, but underneath the surface, there's actually this underlying current of like, are you still one of us? And I hear you naming that. Like there's more, there's the dynamics there that like we're not just talking about policies, we're not just talking about Fauci.

SPEAKER_04: 46:26

Um Are you on my team?

SPEAKER_03: 46:28

Are you on my team? Yeah. Are you still on my team? And this is I think this is where curious curiosity does become essential because you know, anxiety can rise and people stop listening and all these dynamics kind of come into play.

SPEAKER_00: 46:41

Yeah, you you just become the outsider really quickly. And that makes, you know, especially I would imagine as parents that would make you feel uncomfortable of like, I don't know where they maybe stand on something that was really important to us or still is. Um yeah, and for many people, like I I know for my family, although we've had some intense discussions about things, I've we engage them. I I'm getting we're getting more and more comfortable engaging them to where now it's not so uh inflammatory when it happens. But maybe some of you are listening here and you're and you're you're nodding your heads, you're like, oh, I have maybe I've changed my mind on things, and I wouldn't dare tell my parents that I don't believe the same thing they do about X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_04: 47:29

Yeah. Let me offer maybe one more thing um to kind of set the direction for where we're headed. And it goes back to uh Bowen family systems theory, which is because of the complexities we're naming, your first formation, uh, the buttons that were installed that are so easily pushed, the fact that you can't control other people, but you can control you, sort of sets a trajectory for, I think, some of the work we're heading into this holiday season, which is to work on our own maturity in our families. And one of the through lines, if you read uh Family Systems experts, one of the through lines that surfaces is that if you want to grow your emotional maturity as a human being, the best place to do that is with your family. If you want to grow your emotional maturity, the place you need to start, the place you need to practice, the playground is interacting with your family.

SPEAKER_03: 48:28

Is that because it's the hardest with your family?

SPEAKER_04: 48:30

Exactly. It's because it's hardest with your family. Because again, your buttons get pushed because they're the ones who installed them. So if you can learn how to function with your family without those buttons getting pushed, if you can increase your emotional maturity in that type of a place where your first formation is at play, where there's all these dynamics, then that is gonna give you the capacity to do it with people in your workplace, right? With coworkers, with neighbors, with whoever, it's gonna increase your capacity tenfold. And so I'm trying to name and just a little quote from you, from Kathleen Smith. She says, change doesn't happen in a vacuum. Change doesn't even really happen in therapy. You change while in relationships with people closest to you. What does that mean? It means you're never going to change if you're avoiding the people with whom you have the least emotional separation, the people, the people that can really push your buttons. Do I need to spell it out for you? Your family. So here is the conundrum, the tension and the opportunity. It's both an invitation and a challenge. Is how do you navigate the complexity of the holidays relationally? Well, you press into them with the goal of growing your own maturity. And if you can do that, if you can use this holiday season to grow your emotional maturity even by 1.1%, you know, that's gonna really make a big difference in your marriage, in your parenting, in your relationship with your coworkers, neighbors, and friends.

SPEAKER_03: 50:11

Yeah. Yeah. I hear that. I hear you're saying there is a lot of complexity here. Um, but we're not powerless in all of that. And one thing we can do is is grow our own emotional maturity, even if we can't control our people, right? So let's, I mean, let's talk about that. How do we do that? How do we grow our own emotional maturity?

SPEAKER_04: 50:31

We've talked about this a little bit on this podcast before. So some of this will probably be a review. Um, but the best definition I've heard of emotional maturity is the ability to be defined and connected at the same time. Um, so just by way of review, being defined involves it's there's two parts to it. The first part is the ability uh for me to define myself. So I'm able to say what I think, what I believe, what I value, what I want, what I will and won't do with both my words and my actions. That's the first part about of being defined. The second part is giving other people the permission to do the same, to let them say what they think, believe, uh, value, desire, want, will and won't do with both their words and their actions. And then, of course, um, that's really easy to do, giving uh someone else permission to define themselves if you think and believe and want and value and will and do the same things, no tension. But going back to Josiah's example, what happens when you're sitting in the living room and all of a sudden you realize they're sharing opinion I don't agree on? Now all of a sudden that makes connection with them infinitely harder because we don't think the same thing, we don't believe the same things, we don't want the same things and so on. And so the other part of it is being dis being able to stay connected to them at the same time when there's that difference. Now, I'll just say this I'm I continue to go deeper with these concepts. And one of the things I've been doing recently is just trying to get a thicker description of what it means to be connected. And I feel like for a long time it's just been about staying relationally present to that person in the sense of like, hey, I'm still like talking to you. But I want to fill out a thicker sort of definition of connection that it actually involves way more than just like you're still at the table. It involves being attuned to them emotionally. It involves staying connected with them with deep empathy and listening. It's about being curious and continuing to wanting to understand their perspective and their emotions. See how that's different? It's different than just going, oh yeah, I can check the connected box because I'm still at the table, even though we disagree. It's it goes beyond that. It's about me being deeply attuned to you, even though we disagree.

SPEAKER_00: 52:52

Yeah, there's there's ways to fake connection. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 52:56

Which doesn't it's pseudo-connection. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 52:58

Yeah, it's like a it's like a faux version, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 53:02

Yeah. So when when I do training with the leaders' journey, I often give these three descriptors of an emotionally mature person. It's someone who can stay true to their values, convictions, and principles in the face of pressure, both external and internal, um, to when there's pressure external or internal to do otherwise. So imagine you go back to your family and there's all this pressure for you to do something that is actually contrary to your your values, beliefs, and convictions. An emotionally mature person doesn't compromise those. Uh, secondly, you stay connected to others without having your feelings or behaviors determined by them. How often do we get into the context of someone who knows how to push our buttons and we say, You made me feel this way? Well, nobody can make you feel anything. That's your response. Your feelings are your responsibility. So someone with emotional maturity can stay connected to others without having their feelings or their behaviors determined by them. And then finally they're able to define themselves and allow others to do the same, even when difference exists. What strikes me as interesting, and where I would love to maybe, you know, we talk praxis is about learning from Jesus how to live like Jesus. And everything we're talking about in this episode today is not new to Jesus or something he didn't experience. Jesus navigated complex relational dynamics with his own family. And we see this in the Gospels, and I think we see Jesus staying defined and connected at the same time. So could I give maybe just a couple examples? And we can collaborate on this if you if examples come to mind for you. But one example for me would be when Jesus is 12 years old at the temple. You'll remember that they were traveling to Jerusalem for a holiday. They often traveled in big groups for safety. They are departing to head home, and a couple days in they notice Jesus isn't with them. So they panic. They go back to Jerusalem, and Jesus is sitting in the temple. And they're frantic, they're anxious, they're stirred up. Why weren't you with us? And Jesus responds, Didn't you know? Um I I would be in my father's house. He's doing something there with his family. He's defining himself. And then he returns home with them. Right? That's defined and connected. He's not rebelling, but he is differentiating himself. He holds this sense of purpose, he's starting to identify his calling, but he's not cutting off from them. He returns with them and then ends up working, presumably underneath Joseph for the next 20 or so years or 15 years.

SPEAKER_00: 55:52

Can just real quick, can you imagine you've been entrusted with the son of God as your child, and you're in a group of people? And you're like, oh my God, I lost him. Can you imagine? I lost God. Can you imagine how stressed out, how much anxiety there was? Can we just appreciate how much anxiety would have been spreading around the system of like, oh my God, where's Jesus?

SPEAKER_02: 56:21

Yes, it's funny.

SPEAKER_00: 56:22

Um and then walking up and finding Jesus and how much intensity would have been coming towards him.

SPEAKER_04: 56:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 56:28

Jesus, as a very young person, is still able to do that.

SPEAKER_04: 56:31

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 56:32

Which would have been difficult.

SPEAKER_04: 56:33

Yeah. I imagine we don't get um a description of this in the gospels. This is more me just imagining. But I wonder what that conversation was between him and Joseph, because uh in typical first century Judaism, uh, a son would learn the trait of his father and then apprentice under him and then take it over. And so Jesus was um, some use the word a carpenter, um, probably a stonemason. It was a broad category, but that's what Joseph did, and Jesus learned how to do that. Imagine the conversation when he chose not to continue that as the oldest son in the family. Um, I imagine there was some, some of this, these dynamics were at play, you know? And we see his family uh struggling to adapt to this new Jesus. For example, in one story in the Gospels, he's teaching and preaching, and his family shows up uh concerned for him.

SPEAKER_03: 57:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 57:30

Expressing concern about him.

SPEAKER_03: 57:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 57:32

Right?

SPEAKER_03: 57:33

Yeah, that's an example that that that came to my mind too. They doesn't that in Mark III, right? And they it actually says they thought it was like out of his senses or out of his mind or something like that, because he's doing healing people, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 57:45

And what does Jesus do? He says he actually uses it as an opportunity to redefine the category of family altogether, which is super provocative. But he says, Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister. You're my brothers and sisters, right? So once again, you see this clear and calm composure, despite this pressure. Um, and he's differentiating himself, but he's also not cutting off, he's not accusing or attacking.

SPEAKER_03: 58:13

Yeah, right. You know, he could have easily said, like, get out of here. I know what I'm doing. I don't, you know, I don't need you to rescue me, or gotten really defensive.

SPEAKER_04: 58:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 58:20

But I think you're right, he is that grace and truth, or that defined and connected.

SPEAKER_04: 58:25

Right. And and so this is just one of those boxes you can open and begin reading the gospels through just lenses. Where does Jesus have these interactions with family members? And how do we see him doing that defined and connected? There's the miracle at Cana when Mary prompts him to turn water into wine. There's this intimate moment while Jesus is hanging on the cross. A firstborn son was in charge of providing care for uh uh his mom, especially if the husband had died, which was very common. And you see this handoff between Jesus and John. He's entrusting Mary into John's care. There's just all these moments where you see Jesus as one who came from a family navigating family dynamics. It might even be worth thinking further along the line. Uh church tradition suggests that James uh was one of the James Jesus' brother was one of the primary church leaders, wrote the book of James. Interesting to think through. What are the things that James says in his letter? What was that relationship like that led to that kind of influence and that kind of trust for your own brother to end up giving his life to following you? These are the types of things that I get excited about.

SPEAKER_03: 59:38

Yeah. Well, and it just brings up that human element. Like it reminds us that Jesus was human.

unknown: 59:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 59:43

These aren't new problems. These are actually problems that go way back to the beginning of when humans existed, and in including Jesus. He had to navigate that stuff, this stuff. And he did it brilliantly. And I think he does provide us a really good example.

SPEAKER_00: 59:54

Yeah. So and we're talking about being defined and connected. We've seen how Jesus. Jesus was able to navigate these complex relational dynamics. He was human and provides to us a nice um it it provides to us a good uh a good example and a good reminder that he was human and it's an invitation for us to engage in a similar way. Um so let's look at like if we're gonna be defined and connected, let's zoom in on what it looks like to be defined and and being and and the importance of clarifying your own boundaries and and honoring the boundaries of others. When I use the word boundaries I I almost uh I I feel like I have to say something because I think sometimes I I get of I'm adverse to the to the term boundaries because of how often they're misused or used uh used in incorrectly. Um I think often boundaries are used as excuses to not remain connected to people within your family. Um they can be used as as like an escape valve like uh like oh I'm I'm setting a boundary because you made me upset and that just means I'm gonna cut you off. And that's not the same thing. I think that uh this is a this is a good definition of boundaries that has helped me is a boundary is is a commitment that you make to yourself and it requires no one else. It's just you and that's not to be confused with a request you may make of someone else. And so so a boundary is a commitment you make to yourself to show up in a certain way and it also honors the boundaries and commitments that other people have made to themselves.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:52

Yeah that's interesting. I really like what you're saying about how bond boundaries have been sort of misappropriated to do bad work. Um because I see that too it's sort of like boundaries so if we think of systems in previous episodes we've done, we've named that distance relational distance is actually a um a form of immaturity it's an immature response to anxiety to emotional reactivity. And so I see that too people will often use boundary language as a justification for emotional distance some sort of distancing that's actually rooted in their anxiety rather than their maturity and I hear what you're saying is that uh healthy boundaries and appropriate boundaries are actually an expression of maturity and done in love.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:41

Yeah yeah and they don't and they they actually are going to um they're probably going to equal more connection instead of just in instead of cut off so there there is a there's a trend I've been reading about the this this trend of people our age and younger especially just completely cutting off their family of origin. And I think a lot of this is because of an emotional immaturity and a lack of awareness or maybe just a lack of vision of what it looks like to relate to people and and remaining defined and connected at the same time.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:18

Ah so boundaries are done in service to connection with another not as a disruption of it. Yeah. A healthy connection.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:27

Yeah yeah because because yeah we end up we end up over I mean let's just talk about uh um like fake connection like we were talking about before like um we're we're gonna keep keep the peace so we we develop this fake sense of peace by making sure we're always in in agreement well that's only that only lasts so long right so eventually that builds and builds and you never actually define yourself and so what does that that that fake connection equal it ends up equaling cutoff and distance because eventually you can't handle it and it'll be a big blow up and then you have a big fight and then you're going your own separate ways. So um yeah so being able to clarify your own boundaries your own commitments to yourself and being more defined within your family system is actually going to equal more connection because you're gonna be able to show up more authentically with them.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:21

Yeah. It's so funny I was just having a conversation with someone yesterday who was dealing with this exact same dynamic where the family had kind of like the go-along to get along dynamic. No one wanted to rock the boat. If you say something that rocks the boat, then it's like well why are you being disruptive? Like we should all just be happy. But there was some real tension like some real significant relational tension that had surfaced and because there weren't great categories or tools for working through it she was sensing people were starting to go to cut off and she's like I'm even kind of feeling like I'm just I just maybe want maybe I just need to be done like maybe we just do our own thing for Thanksgiving. And so this was the exact conversation that we were having. And I love that we're talking about being defined and connected because I think you're right Josiah learning how to define here's what I am who's here's what I think here's what I believe here's what I value and then giving the person to do the same thing actually allows you to preserve connection and deepen connection in a real way. Like you were saying Mac, being connected to someone isn't just agreeing with them and thinking the same things. It's actually being able to define yourself and maintain that connection. And that yeah I I have had to work on this as well with my family. And so to fill out that side you kind of filled out what it looks like to be defined and to have your values I think you know it's maybe worth just filling out what does it mean to be connected? Like how do we not just be defined and stop there, but how do we preserve that sense of of connection, especially when anxiety runs high, especially when you're home for the holidays and all these dynamics and tensions are swirling. Like let's say you're at family dinner and your uncle says something that makes your blood pressure spike um what do you do instead of snapping back or shutting down and walking away from the table? And you know one thing one thing I would offer is cure you know just getting curious, asking questions. I think one phrase that can be really helpful is just to say like tell me more about that or offering observations. Hey it seems like you have strong feelings about that or it seems like it it seems like you're really passionate or um it seems like that matters a lot to you. What what makes you see it that way right that way you don't have to agree and you don't have to have this strong um defensiveness or disagreement but your curiosity can really lower defensiveness and I think it can actually keep the relationship intact. And again connection isn't contingent on agreeing. Yeah and to learn how to do that dance I think is where the where the real work comes in.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:48

Yeah there's a there's a there's a sense that it needs to start with your own definition. Like uh if you're gonna have a good conversation with someone in your family about something you disagree with often the source of the anxiety is is fearing that if I am different from them that I will lose connection. Or um I really don't feel as strongly about this and and I I sort of need their approval in order to disagree with them. And so the more you're old you're able to like walk into something and being like no this is where I stand on an issue and I can also I can also respect that like they can have their own position on this too. And that I that can help lower the anxiety because now I need less from them in order to feel secure.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:38

Can I riff for a moment I'm learning a lot just listening to you two talk there's a couple things that are like most captivating to me like captivating my attention the first relates to what you're saying Josiah about boundaries and my biggest takeaway from this conversation is that our boundaries are in service to healthy relationship. And so in other words what you're what you're binding so to speak what you're uh refusing or putting limits around are unhealthy relational behaviors from yourself and others in service to wanting a better relationship with them. Yeah. You know? And I would just maybe add one of the things that we get tripped up on a lot is we focus on content when in fact underneath it is like an emotional process or dynamic, a relational dynamic that's like inhibiting content.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:29

What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:30

Okay yeah like one example would be let's say someone keeps texting you something that's like a complicated conversation could be a family member about plans or whatever and you're just noticing like this this vehicle for communication, this mode of communicating i.e text isn't doing good work. We need to actually talk over the phone or in person. That would be an example of like the dynamic, the relational dynamic the the isn't conducive for what we need to do. So putting a limit around I don't want to talk over text, I want to talk in person or over the phone, it's a boundary, but it's a boundary in service to what's most helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:08

Yes. Yeah that makes sense? Yes and this is actually really fresh. Um oh and I don't I don't know if my wife is listening to this I don't know if she listening but uh she just very recently there was a there's a subject matter that we that I wanted to discuss with but with her and I am really good I'm really good at uh at texting those and texting to initiate very complex discussions.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:39

Oh that's so helpful of you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:41

Yeah and and I as much as I don't want to admit it I can uh recognize that that is an anxious response because I don't like having to hold on to it myself and if I can just get her to feel about it. A text barf is great. Sure. And uh it doesn't always do good work. Uh well I should say it rarely does good work.

SPEAKER_04: 1:10:03

For our relationship I'll just even push it a step further. It never does good work. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:08

Because I'm trying to take my anxiety about it and give it to her. And I can recognize that now. But she very recently did a very good job. She did something uh that it was not a request of me very simply she it was just a few days ago and she had it it was really busy and she had like 15 budget meetings and it was just insane. So she saw the text and she purposefully did not read it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:10:36

Well good for her.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:37

And she told me she later texted she said hey I can't respond to this right now so I'm not going to read it yet and um like we can discuss it later but I can't focus on that right now. And it made me it kind of made me mad that's great. But that was a boundary that was a very receiving end of a boundary. Nah whatever I don't want it's never fun to be on the receiving end of a boundary it's but it's but it's good and what I noticed is uh like we still haven't gotten to talk about it yet which is okay um but the point is like what happened with her is like rather than her frazzling trying to figure out how to be everything for everyone um even just the last couple of days it it she was able to show up very present and healthily within the home and all those things um defining the boundary of hey this is what I am I am unwilling to bring it up when we can't talk about it in a healthy way.

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:38

Yeah. So that's a I think there's an example service to the relationship. Yes. Yeah. And then Katie you're talking about this whole practice of empathy and curiosity which I also think is a great counterpoint because that's in service to the relationship. I really want to have my friend Trisha Taylor on this podcast to talk about deep listening. She's just like a guru when it comes to this deep listening requires empathy and curiosity and she's got this really great checklist of did I do that? So I'll just share a couple with you. One is um did I give my full attention to the other person? These are things you can do this holiday season.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_04: 1:12:18

With I looking at my phone how often are you going to be sitting with family and you're like I'm looking at my phone or they're looking at their phone? Like that disrupts connection. You're not gonna be able to listen deeply when you're on your phone at the same time. Did I listen without interjecting my own opinion? So how often like we like immediately they what they say I disagree with and I'm all of a sudden interrupting them to like challenge or get my own word in did I reflect my understanding back to the person so before I say anything did I like pause and say hey here's what I hear you saying and let them know that I understand them you know and then she just asks did I talk too much like did I give the if was the word count more in my favor or their favor? And I think that's for me a great a great checklist. I've learned a lot from her about that curiosity piece and how it can be done in service to a healthier relationship.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:13

Yeah I love that it's much harder to fix people though when you do those things no doubt I have the solution for them if they would just listen.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:23

They would just listen dang it well and that leads to maybe the final thing that's worth highlighting which is being emotionally mature involves focusing on yourself rather than trying to change or manage others, right? Uh one of the primary symptoms of anxiety and when I use that word I'm I'm referring to emotional reactivity when we get emotionally stirred up we tend to focus outward rather than inward. We tend to focus on what other the other person is doing wrong. And we often just think man if they were just to stop doing that or if they were to change this and often it's what we think would they need to do, then all of this would go away and we'd be we'd be in a much better spot. Again going back to this Dr Kathleen Smith, she says anxiety wants us to stay focused on everyone else and what they're doing wrong. The challenge is to start treating yourself like a research project and notice what you do to manage anxiety in yourself and in your relationships. And so I just think one of the primary things that can help navigate the holidays is not to focus on you know your mother-in-law and what she does to drive you nuts or your dad and what he's going to do or dope, yep, there's my brother doing that thing again, but to focus on yourself. How am I showing up? What am I doing that's maybe contributing to the relational dynamics that are at play. And that can be it's it's much more uncomfortable to do that work than to simply see other people's flaws. And Jesus actually had some teaching on this like instead of trying to take the speck out of someone else's eye, take the two by four out of your own. Yeah. That's kind of what I'm getting at, you know?

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:00

Yeah so I was reading this morning um the passage about the trial of Jesus before the crucifixion his trial before Pontius Pilate and it stuck out to me how like the crowd around him was getting really loud and you could say anxious probably and then reactive and yelling and screaming and um then you had Pilate grilling him with questions. And man if there were like any scenario in Jesus in which someone would be in some sense justified to match their energy and get defensive and be like this these are wrongful accusations. I'm on right, I'm on trial without good reason he he didn't do that. He stayed calm he stayed centered um he stayed truthful you know like no no no he didn't try to say oh you must misunderstood I didn't mean that he just he this is I think he shows us what it looks like to carry peace and centeredness into a really anxious system when you think about I agree with you I mean Jesus gives us a masterclass of what it means to be emotionally mature in a whole wide variety of settings from his own family to his close friendships to out I mean all over the place.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:10

I'm curious when you think about this coming holiday season navigating all the relationships with your family focusing on yourself rather than what other people are doing wrong what do you feel like your primary work is? Would you be willing to share that? I'll start by way of modeling by example. I notice that with my family when we think about staying the same size we often default to one of two ways when we get anxious we can become bigger what we call at cross point a puffer fish or we can shrink back we can be a become a turtle most people I think assume I'm always a puffer fish. That's more with just my family we are very direct communicators um you know so I have to during the holidays with my side of the family be very conscientious of not getting big if there's disagreement and that sort of a thing. I'm also noticing though on my side of the family with a few people I stay connected and calm but don't I go along to get along and it might require some courage this holiday season to go I hear you and I think I might see it a little bit different. I'd like to I'd like to work on that with a few people my family this Thanksgiving and Christmas to be able to say thanks for sharing that I think I see it a little bit differently and have the courage to say that. With Josie's family my in-laws I am a total turtle I often will just retreat completely and I don't mean just like conversationally I do that too but I will just like go upstairs and be in my room for a bit. And so growth for me there is to remain a little bit more present and have the courage to say things that I know they may not agree with not to be provocative but to be known yeah so it sounds like understanding your defaults is a pretty important step in engaging differently. Totally and the way we define ourselves going back to defined and connected the way we define ourselves has a massive implications for how people connect to us. So if I get big it's hard to connect if I shrink back it's hard to connect so the key is to stay the same size.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:22

Yeah yeah I think when when we get bigger in order to connect we can convince ourselves we are connected but the rest of the room is usually just complying because we're being over the top. I think I I think there's certain of my environments that um because I can be opinionated and maybe like uh say things really strongly I uh that I can see people nod their heads but I have no idea if they actually agree with me. And in the same way I I often I have the same I can name the same thing. There's people in my family that speak very with lots of conviction and over the top and it never feels worth it to define myself. Like it never feels like it's gonna be worth it. So you just nod and you say yeah interesting rather than naming like wait what did you just say you know so yeah so I can I can I can see that for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:21

So for you maybe the work is to is to define yourself in a connected way.

SPEAKER_04: 1:19:26

Yeah well I think I think to not be over the top but also not shrink back.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:31

Yeah well for me I guess that I'm seeing the importance of uh self-reflecting and analyzing uh like how am I what is my default in each given scenario.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:46

Yeah. Yeah I think for me it's always helpful to to um identify what I can and can't control. Like when there are things happening I do tend to be a fixer or if someone's saying something or going on a rant that I feel like is just um missing some pieces maybe. I I really want to be like no that's not it or to explain or to pipe in um to do the interject thing that you were just talking about. But I think one thing that's helpful for me is just to go like okay I can't control that. And even if I do jump in I I overestimate my own ability to like change their minds or to fix or whatever. But I can't control how do I show up right now. So one thing that's helpful is just asking myself like okay how do I want to show up right now and knowing whether to just like when to just leave things like okay that's them. I don't have to fix it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:37

I don't have to interject um but again like you were saying Mac earlier just keeping the focus on myself and how I want to show up one question that I'll just give to you that's been helping me with those dynamics when I'm just hearing opinions that like I'm like oh I don't I just don't I don't know I I'm having a hard time with this one. Yeah. Um and I want to bring this into the holidays is to say hey would would you are you open to hearing a different perspective on that and and I like that because it's sort of prepping them hey and is giving them permission. Like no not really and I can often tell them hey and it's okay if you don't yeah but then it kind of gives them permission to go do I really want to go there or not and it lets them know hey we don't see it the same way so you know it's kind of like don't keep sharing your opinion if you don't want to hear anything different. Right? I've just noticed I'm getting a lot of there's a like some health in asking that question. It sort of creates an environment where it brings some awareness to things I like that I really like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:43

I think a lot of this can boil down to it just if we're gonna engage in a healthy way, being defined and connected I think that it looks like prioritizing our relationships with people over being right that we can value connection um more than just winning arguments. Being defined does not mean that you have to make sure everybody knows your opinion about something or convincing other people about it. I think we can choose to be president yeah we can be president.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:17

I believe in you just like I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:21

Yeah yeah yeah but here's the thing Katie going back to like what you were saying that's hard about the holidays for you like someone might be I can just imagine it someone's on a rant and they're sharing a lot of things and not only do you disagree with but are pretty ignorant and uninformed given how much you know and you know what I mean? Yeah. And I can just see if I'm in your shoes like that thing bubbling up in me that's like oh but oh yeah and I want to interject and inform and correct and did like all that. And it seems like those are the exact moments where it's like up I need to choose relational connection bef over being right and um and and stay centered on that. My friend Trisha Taylor says you can't win a conversation. And I love that because conversations are the key to relationship building having a conversation with someone conversations are not debates. Conversations aren't arguments conversations are about being known and knowing the other person and you can't win one of those in a conversation imagine a ball where I when I hold the ball I'm talking and then I throw it to you and then you get to talk and then you throw it back and back and forth we go. You can't win that. Right? And so often when there's controversial or complicated topics that arise not just in families but in other places it's like all of a sudden we stop playing catch where you throw and then I talk and back and forth all of a sudden it's like no let me hold the ball forever and then throw it back to you and you have to agree with everything I just said.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:55

Yeah. Yeah that's very interesting it reminds me of a conversation I had with my mom once years ago I wonder if she even remembers it but we were having a conversation she's a fixer as well she's always giving her advice or you should do this, you should do that. And it's usually yeah and it's usually pretty strong like no you you need to do this and we were having a conversation with their imperatives.

SPEAKER_04: 1:24:14

You're going to do this.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:15

Yeah right but you're going to do and um we were having a conversation once or I think I named like that's not always helpful. And her response was so honest and it was just like but my advice is really good I mean we all think that right we all think that I you know it is hard for me to listen to people talking to me like but you're wrong especially having worked in having worked in politics I've literally sat there when a family member goes on a rant about something that like I I'm like I worked on that. Like you are you you're yes you're wrong. But but but I think that's so true and it's so hard for me to remember like this is a really this is a really big challenge for me. Um to think of I like what you said Mac to think about conversation how did you put it no one it's not about winning.

SPEAKER_04: 1:25:01

Yeah you can't win a conversation is the quote. And again I'm saying in the context of prioritizing relationship over being right within that context the goal of conversation is to know and be known to understand and be understood. And if that's the goal then winning and losing isn't part of that framework.

SPEAKER_03: 1:25:21

Yeah. And actually doing what you need to do to feel like you're winning probably comes at a cost to the relationship.

SPEAKER_04: 1:25:26

Yeah, especially if they're not open to you. If they're moving towards you then disagreement's great yeah right but if the a posture of the other person is arrogance, closed mindedness, like then you're just wasting your breath anyways.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:38

Yeah. Yeah it's like I wonder what it would look like to go back into our families and during the holidays and assume no one will ever change their mind about any given issue and they're all going to relate the exact same way. So if we assume that before it starts, then my job is showing up number one, accepting that my job is not to change anybody during the holidays. I'm not a, you know I'm not gonna like be a motivational speaker to try to get everyone to do something that I think is best. It also can give us a peace. Yes and knowing that now my my role if we want to say is not in any sense trying to make sure and influence the home. My my role is simply just to um learn how to be myself and learn how to attend to my own stuff during it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:26:37

Yeah and and then respond to whatever you being yourself creates in other people. This is the work. I I think that what you just said is great. How do you navigate the holidays let's assume that everything that you've experienced about your family and your network of relationships stays exactly the same over the next six weeks just assume it Uncle Bob still is going to show up as Uncle Bob Aunt Betty is still going to be Aunt Betty. Let's assume they're not going to change a bit they're gonna do what they always do. How are you going to show up? You can't change them they're gonna do what they always do. Those dynamics are going to remain the same but how are you showing up with a little bit more maturity as it relates to those dynamics what does that look like for you again I'll just lob a question your way that I'm experimenting with when someone is saying something that I really disagree with and maybe I don't know whether they're open to hearing a different perspective or whatever is often I'm trying to learn how to do this is to say I want to know you and I want to be known by you. What if we use right now as an opportunity to do that I'll listen to your perspective and you can go as long as you need to and I'll make sure I reflect it back so that you I'm understanding you. Then would you be willing to switch and then if they're not willing to do that then I'll go okay well I want to have some agency about whether I'm willing to listen to you or not.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:06

Yeah yeah I like I like the word willing and unwilling I think that's a that's a good word to use for boundaries is like I am willing to do this if you are willing to meet me here. But if you're not willing to meet meet me there then I am unwilling to have this conversation.

SPEAKER_04: 1:28:25

100% I also want to name explicitly that I'm naming the goal before I give that option. So remember I started with saying I want to know you and be known by you. So everything's framed under that desire. Because of that I'm willing to listen to you. Why? Because I just said I want to know you also want to be known by you so then can we switch? If you're not willing to do that, then I guess we're not gonna know and be known by each other. Let's just acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:55

Yeah yeah you're gonna put in the terms out there up front like that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29:00

All right friends. Praxis Padcast it is praxis time. You might be listening to this conversation and going well I don't know what just happened and I certainly don't know what to do with it. So let's close. It has been two hours. Yeah let's I know um let's close by talking about some concrete things you can do as you head into this holiday season to navigate the relational complexity that is inevitably before you yeah well the first one we kind of just touched it on touched on it on the end here but um is just to define your values ahead of time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:36

It's not a surprise it's Christmas again it's Thanksgiving again uh this is not it doesn't need to sneak up on you. So what does it look like to do a little bit of work before showing up within these spaces and saying hey who am I? How do I want to show up? Um what do what values am I going to live out of And principles during this holiday season and what does it look like to be authentic to that? Just sort of define them ahead of time and maybe even write them down. Make it a journaling exercise. It could be discuss it with your spouse. Like, hey, these are the things that like I know so and so is going to show up like this. I know dad's gonna be like this. That we can assume. So, what does it look like for me uh to show up and how do I want to show up in light of that? And and and maybe just coming up with some vision of how could it go really well if I did it that way. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:30:38

The holidays don't have to sneak up on you, they're not gonna jump out of the closet and scare you. We know it's coming, so prepare for it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:30:44

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Another one I would name would be name and notice your triggers. So we've done a lot of work on this. We did a whole series towards the beginning of this podcast on like anxiety and how it shows up and seeing anxiety in a system. So maybe go back and and listen to some of those. But um the the the episode we did on self-awareness was all about just like paying attention to what happens in your body when certain topics come up, certain people start saying things that they say. Um, just recognize it. Am I feeling anxious in my gut? Am I feeling like I'm vibrating? Am I sweating in my pits? Like whatever it is, right? Usually I'm the one who says it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04: 1:31:26

Way to go, Katie. You looked at me like this is I'm I'm doing what you would do.

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:29

Uh-huh. Totally. Um, and recognizing it not with the shame, but just kind of as a data point that helps you stay grounded. And I think knowing that, going into that, like, okay, this is, you know, this is how I tend to respond when I get anxious, kind of being able to see that before it hits, um, can help you stay grounded so that you're not as reactive in the moment.

SPEAKER_04: 1:31:52

Yeah, that's great. I think when we uh here's what I'm noticing is that we're really giving you one big practice, and that is to head into the holidays with a plan. So you're not caught off guard or surprised, and you can the plan is to show up as a mature human being. Take your maturity one step further. Josiah, you named boundaries. Have an idea of what those boundaries should be. Katie, you said notice your triggers, right? Have an awareness of how you get triggered so you don't get triggered. Um, well, so you know how to manage when you get triggered, would be a better way to say it. Yeah. I might add to this plan one more ingredient that I think for me is the center of the center, of the center of what a plan should be for relationships during the holidays. And again, this comes a little bit out of the way I've been influenced by family systems theory. But the plan is have a quality, one-to-one interaction with each person in your family. So have a plan to connect with each and every person in your family in a one-to-one way while being mature. And so for me, I'm actually heading into the holidays with a list of questions questions for each person that I think will foster deeper connection. So, for instance, my sister Anna is a therapist. So I'm gonna ask about her private practice and how that's going. Uh her and her husband Isaac do foster care. So I'm gonna ask about how that's going. You know, there's some challenging things they're navigating. My brother-in-law is considering buying a business. I'm excited to ask him about that. So I'm just going through with like a list of questions for each person to be connected to them.

SPEAKER_02: 1:33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33:32

And that's the this is how you grow your maturity, I think, is yes, having boundaries. Yes, knowing your triggers, but ultimately it's just about deepening one-to-one connection with each and every person, so far as it depends on you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:45

Love it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33:48

All right. Well, thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed today's episode and that it was helpful, helps you as you navigate the holidays. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:59

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspoint WI.com. If you have any questions, comments, or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.