Praxis
Praxis
Who Before Do
What if the most important work of your life happens where no one sees it? We dig into a core conviction of missional discipleship—God cares about the who, not just the do—and trace how that truth reframes leadership, mission, and everyday faith.
We start with Jesus’ own pattern: decades of hidden formation before three years of public ministry. That ratio alone confronts our bias for speed and scale. From calling the Twelve to be with him before sending them, to telling returning disciples to rejoice in belonging rather than power, Jesus centers identity over output. We connect these scenes to John 15’s abiding, clarifying that lasting fruit grows from union, not hustle. Along the way we name how the fruit of the Spirit is character, not competence, and why performative religion—clean cups on the outside, chaos within—erodes witness.
Then we get practical about the pressures we all feel: the midday pull to produce, the subtle ways church culture can celebrate results over reality, and the harm that follows when we measure leaders by charisma and numbers instead of character. We talk about building congruence so your public life matches your private life, treating people as co-stewards in God’s story rather than instruments in ours, and finding stability when identity is rooted in Christ instead of applause. Finally, we offer simple, repeatable practices: prioritize prayer over productivity, reflect daily to notice where you’re hurried or hiding, and invite honest feedback to close blind spots. Real transformation is slow and often invisible, but it’s the only path to durable fruit and trustworthy leadership.
If this resonates, share it with a friend, subscribe for more conversations like this, and leave a review to help others find the show. What “who before do” shift will you make this week?
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. We are in a series right now focused on our mental models for missional discipleship, a framework for living out our faith as disciples of Jesus in everyday life. Whether we're aware of it or not, we all have mental models. Deep convictions and assumptions that shape how we see and take action in the world. Mental models are kind of like prescription lenses. While often invisible when wearing them, they consistently shape the way that we think, the way we feel, and the way we act. So what were the mental models that Jesus lived by? What convictions shaped how Jesus saw people, responded to needs, formed disciples, and joined God's mission in the world? That's what this series is all about. Each week we are unpacking a key conviction that shaped Jesus' way of life, and then we explore how it can shape ours too as we seek to be a community of disciples living on mission in the way of Jesus. And today we're going to look at another core conviction, and it's this God cares about the who and not just the do. Let's go into it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, welcome everyone. My name is Mac.
SPEAKER_02:I'm Katie.
SPEAKER_01:I'm Josiah. It's good to be with you guys. Um I'm enjoying this fall weather. I like the cool, crisp mornings. I wouldn't even consider this fall weather yet, quite frankly. Okay, well, we're off to a great start.
SPEAKER_00:It's still too warm. It's like muggy outside. It is a little humid. There was mosquitoes the other day when I was sitting on my back patio. So that ain't right. No. Here's a question for you.
SPEAKER_01:Um, how sick do you need to be to call in sick for work?
SPEAKER_02:Oh gosh. I feel targeted.
SPEAKER_01:It's but it's a fun question.
SPEAKER_02:It is a fun question. Um Josiah, you go first.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh man. It depends what's going on. If it's a Sunday morning, I'm gonna be here no matter what. Like, I can't.
SPEAKER_02:What if you're like puking, like uncontrollably?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I have sang on Sunday mornings through some pretty rough symptoms. Yes, you have. Like, you know, pop an ibuprofen to try to get the fever down low enough so I can finish the job.
SPEAKER_02:That sounds miserable.
SPEAKER_00:Um so it depends on the day. I mean, if there's less going on, I feel like I could justify staying home. Uh I got a sick day, they're not gonna miss me, whatever. But if it's Sunday morning, I feel like you have to push through a lot. Like, unless my voice is gone, I I have to be there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that makes sense. What about you, Mac?
SPEAKER_01:I do trend towards like it's gonna take a lot for me to uh call in sick or not work.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and even if I'm like, if if I did, it'd probably be like, I don't want to give this to anybody else, but then I'll I'll still try to maintain everything I'd normally do from home. Yeah, you know, like it it takes quite a bit. And like you, Josiah, I've uh preached or um through some really, really sick days, you know. Yeah, having that stage presence adds a whole it's just the worst because you're like, I feel so gross, and yet like not just anybody, I can't just like phone a friend here and be like, step into it.
SPEAKER_02:Like, yeah. Um you had one of those a couple months ago.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yep. It was really Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I got a cold a couple weeks ago, um, got ready, convinced myself it was fine. As I'm walking it out the door, Alex was like, I don't feel like you should be going to work right now. I was like, I'll be fine. And then I got halfway here and I was like, I might pass out. I might lose consciousness. I should probably turn the car around.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think I can still make it though.
SPEAKER_02:I think I'll do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, which is raised. Yeah, in light of that, I thought of this question because I was like, okay, if we surveyed our staff, what would like, how quickly will people call in and say, like, I'm feeling too crummy to come in? Katie's like, um, I'm about to pass up, but I'll be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It brought me back to this childhood memory of being in third grade when it was the same thing. I didn't like missing school. So I felt sick, but I ignored it. Didn't tell my mom. The second I got off the bus and walked in the front doors, I'd puked, like ugly puked in the in the office in front of everybody. Into my, I still remember like into my gloves. A parkland. I know. I park lawn.
SPEAKER_01:The stain is still there on the carpet.
SPEAKER_02:It probably, it probably is from the 90s. Yes. Yeah. So it goes, it goes back.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I I would assume that people the the likelihood of calling in has more to do with how you feel about your job than it does like your willingness to push through something hard. Because I think most of us, if we knew you had to be there, everyone's relying on you. I feel like most decently mature people would just like push through and be there. But generally, like if I've ever called in sick for a place and I wasn't like super sick, this is because you don't want to be there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. You know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I hope so.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah. I hope so.
SPEAKER_01:Well, speaking of sick days and um puking. Puking and passing out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Which I tend to do together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Right. Oh man.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I tend to pass out when I throw up.
SPEAKER_00:That's cool.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:We can move on from that topic.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, let's keep talking about puking. No, uh, yeah. So we're in a series, as we heard earlier, focused on our mental models for missional discipleship. And this is like uh it's like a framework for living out our faith as disciples of Jesus in everyday life. These frameworks aren't simply just good ideas for us, right? They're um they're actually the core convictions Jesus lived by in his ministry. So in each episode, we're exploring some of these convictions uh that anchor us and guide us as we go about being a community of disciples, living on mission. Uh so we've covered a few, so let's just list them out. We've had five episodes in this series so far. Um the the first one is God's presence precedes our participation. We've talked about how God bends to meet us in in reality. Talked about how God is like Jesus, that God's kingdom looks like Jesus' ministry. And then the last one, we talked about how trust leads and effort follows. So today we're gonna go uh unpack another conviction that's central to missional discipleship, and it's that God cares about the who and not just the do. So here's here's what what we're talking about here. We're um when when we say the who, we're talking about your character and your heart, your maturity. This is who you really are on the inside, right? Um, and the do uh is your your gifts and abilities, achievements, accomplishments, your roles and titles, things that you do. So our conviction is that God is primarily concerned with our identity and our character, like who we are, and not merely just our actions, our productivity, our performance, and the things we do. So being comes before doing. Character uh is is more important than the than the comp or character over competency, the who matters more. So um I think this will have some overlap with our last episode where we're talking about how trust leads and effort follows.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think, you know, uh, I'm actually preaching on something similar this weekend. So I feel like I've got a lot in my brain right now that I could share. But um, I think one of the things that we keep saying in this series is that these were the core convictions that Jesus uh carried around. These were the lenses that Jesus had on. And so maybe we can just start with Jesus' example. Um, if we're saying, hey, the who matters more than the do, where do we see that showing up in the life of Jesus? And like I I can kick us off. I mean, one of the things that stands out to me right away is that Jesus spent most of his life in relative obscurity. I mean, you think about it, and it's like this is we have very little information about Jesus for the first 30 years of his life. We have birth narratives in two of the gospels, Matthew and Luke, but not the other two. And then there's this brief story in Luke about Jesus in the temple when he's 12 years old, where he sort of like hangs back and his parents lose him, and he's grilling the religious leaders with questions and they're super impressed. But that's it. I mean, that is all we have. And the next time we encounter Jesus, get information about Jesus is when he's about 30 years old, launching his public ministry. And as we talked about last week, it starts with receiving his identity and going through some testing before he even launches in the power of the spirit. I think um we could maybe think wrongly that these are wasted years, and I don't think they're they were wasted at all. Um I would imagine that Jesus was studying the scriptures, memorizing the scriptures. Jesus was cultivating intimacy with his father. Um, he was preparing for what he was going to do publicly, right? And and I think one lesson from that observation is just that the primary place that we need to attend to our formation um is out of sight, right? If we just look at Jesus, most of his life we don't know anything about it. And he spent 30 some years preparing for what he was going to do publicly for three years. I think one implication of that is that most of our formation needs to happen out of sight, um, out of the spotlight. Um, and this is why I think solitude and silence is such an important discipline for spiritual leaders, because it becomes very difficult to attend to our own formation and our, especially our character gaps when we're in the spotlight being applauded for what we what we're able to do well. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, that's so funny. I was just talking about this with my spiritual director yesterday, this exact same idea. Um, because I might struggle with it a little bit.
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_02:And uh we yeah, we were talking about Jesus spending that 30 years in obscurity, and he knew like we have indications, he knew at a pretty early age that he had this calling and he had this ministry. So it's not like he didn't get that calling until he was 30. Like he knew when he was a kid. So imagine holding that um holding that calling, knowing that I have this huge mission from God, but yet I'm not to act on it yet. And imagine all the, like I just I think about all the ways he must have. I mean, I imagine it wasn't always easy for him. Like he was human.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So I imagine that it was like he kind of did some grappling or wrestling with God over staying in the that obscurity, when yet he, in some ways, I imagine, was excited to get on with it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's just like this slow, steady, patient engagement that didn't seem hurried or rushed, like I need to get the ball rolling. In fact, even in John 2, the first miracle in the Gospel of John is the wedding at Cana, where Jesus transforms the purity water into wine, and it's his mom who sort of kind of is the impetus, like, come on, you you can you can do this. And he's like, Yeah, it's not my time yet, you know? So you you just see this a slower pace, um, attending to what matters most before he tries to do anything. And I just think that's significant. But what else stands out?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think, yeah, uh it is really cool how we see Jesus do this with himself. I also think we see Jesus do this with his disciples. Right. So in in Mark 3, it says Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him, talking about calling the apostles. He appointed twelve that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach and have authority to drive out demons. So again, the the first move there is for Jesus to call them to be with him. And that order is important. He invites them to be with him before being sent by him. And I think this tells us how Jesus' priority wasn't just about training people, but about forming people. Like their relationship and identity as his followers and his friends was the foundation of then what would be their ministry. Right? Like he didn't put them in a classroom and go, here are some tools, go. Like he relationship with him was the classroom.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, be then do.
SPEAKER_02:Be then do. Uh-huh. Learn from me, see how I operate. Let's sort of like engage in conversation, like we're just gonna do life together. And then out of that place of being formed as a disciple, your ministry will flow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's right. And you know, one of the other stories that stands out to me or passages is even once they had been formed for a while and then were sent out with authority, um, when they come back celebrating what happened, Jesus once again points to their identity and their formation as being primary. So, for example, in in Luke 10, when he sends out the 72, uh that they come back um really elated with what they experience, like, whoa, man, like we were able to heal people and demons, even like we casted out demons or whatever. And Jesus responds to them by saying, Hey, don't rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Uh, and and so he's almost like going, Yes, like that's exciting. Um, but then he reminds them that the real foundation of their lives is is not ministry achievement um or spiritual power or visible fruit. It's not those types of things. It's that their identity is secure in him and success in ministry can go up and down. It can go up and down, which is why it's a really crummy place to like anchor yourself.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, instead, it's about your identity being in me and about you attending to who you are, because that you take with you wherever you go, and no matter what the results are.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I I think of the fact that Jesus called people who weren't necessarily the best and brightest people to do the ministry with him. Right? He called fishermen and blue-collar type of workers and a very diverse group of people. Uh yeah, Fadia seemed like an idiot. Well, I'm just saying that that he could have went and looked for the best and brightest, and he didn't.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so I think that's just more evidence to show that like Jesus cares about something different than than we do. Um, I also see that Jesus uh in John chapter 10, Jesus names the primary work of our discipleship is is to remain in him or or to abide. Um the the passage talks about the the vine and the branches, right? Um if you remain in me, I will remain in you and you will bear much fruit. So our job isn't um running out to go produce fruit ourselves and then bring that back to God and showcase it, like, hey, look everything I did for you. No, our job starts by saying you can't there's nothing happening outside of me, remain in me, connect to me. Um, and God will produce fruit as you do that. Um and I think it just shows how uh you know, it just it just shows how Jesus was like didn't have the cart before the horse in that way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, I also think of the the fruit of the spirit, like when Paul's talking about um the marks of spiritual maturity, he doesn't list like a bunch of skills or accomplishments, or once you do these things, then you'll know you're a mature disciple. It's like character traits, yeah. Yeah, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. Like that's what we're to be striving for as disciples.
SPEAKER_01:I like to think that I discovered Shane and Shane before most people. Um I I didn't play, well, I played piano for like two years um growing up, like kindergarten, first grade, and then I threw a tantrum and quit. Um and then the next instrument I picked up was the guitar in my senior year of high school. So get you might appreciate this, Josiah. I didn't have a teacher. I like was kind of self-taught, but the artist that I liked the most was like the vintage Shane and Shane, when it was all just acoustic and not overly produced. And I loved trying to figure out like their rhythm. I mean, he's got some complex, I think he used to be a drummer. And uh, and so I just remember being captivated by like, wow, how does how did he do that? I gotta figure out. So I really like the but he had this song, um, and it was called Received. And and these are the lyrics. It it says this you whispered to your child today, but I haven't got a minute to listen. Your child is busy with the work of God and taking him for granted. Got a lot to do today. Kingdom works the game I play, but Lord, my serving you replaced me knowing you. And I just remember that, like senior in high school. Oh, my serving you has replaced my knowing you and just naming like what a temptation that is, particularly for, I mean, you're listening to people who are on a church staff. This is a massive temptation for anybody in ministry, where we sort of equate doing things, like the work of, I don't know, serving over here or leading this or whatever, with actually knowing Jesus personally. And those just aren't the same. They're not the same things. And so we can hustle around doing all sorts of things, serve in in the name of in the name of Jesus, serving and so on, but in reality, that's not the same as like sitting at Jesus' feet. And and and in the end, the fruit is different, as you were saying, Josiah, based on that John 15. Like, we can't produce the fruit. And there's a stark difference between like the fruit of self, the the fruit of my own hustle for God, and like the fruit that comes effortlessly because I'm deeply connected to Jesus. And I know Mary and Martha maybe get a bad rap, like Martha does, but it does seem like there's a fundamental difference that she's like hustling around doing things for Jesus, and Mary chooses the one thing that is better, which is to sit at his feet and be connected to him, to learn from him. So this posture of discipleship I just think is so important. It's the primary work of just staying connected and um receiving all of our life and nourishment through that relationship, not through simply serving. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I feel like it's especially deceptive for those doing ministry because like we're doing good things, right? Like in in a sense, doing quote unquote like God things for God, or so it it often feels like that. And certainly you get to know aspects of God's character through doing that work. But I think it can be extra deceptive because you're right, Mac. You feel like, okay, I don't need to spend my time with God. Okay, well, example from this morning. I got up.
SPEAKER_01:What'd you do? Well, I got up thinking like, oh, we have this podcast.
SPEAKER_02:I woke up with a few thoughts. My mind just races in the morning. So I'm like, oh, I have a few thoughts. So I like got up, came downstairs, grabbed my laptop, and then I was like, wait a second. I am literally about to go talk about how being with God is more important than doing for God. Why don't I put my laptop aside, spend some time with Jesus? I know. Wow. It's not every morning that I do that.
SPEAKER_01:God is so proud of what you just did there.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, that is my point is actually my instinct was to do the opposite of what I was about to talk about.
SPEAKER_01:I know. And it's such a strong temptation. Like I feel that same thing. You are not alone in that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um maybe one other observation from the gospels is Jesus' uh continual indictment of the religious leaders really centers on this point again and again and again. Um, He continually harps on them for mixing up this order of the do and the who, right? Um, one great example is just in Mark 7, where his disciples, the religious leaders call Jesus out because his disciples are eating without doing the like the cleanliness ritual. And Jesus just like flips it on them so quickly. He ends up quoting from Isaiah and he's like, Um, hey, you guys appear, you know, clean on the outside, but inside you're totally filthy. And then he says, You honor me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me. You know, like he's saying, like, hey, you're doing the right things, you're cleaning your hands, you're you're mouthing the right words, but the truth is you're totally messed up on the inside. And so the there's this lack of congruity between who you are and what you're doing. And if you want a full-on like moment where he just sticks it to him, read Matthew 23, where he's like, You're whitewashed too. You look great on the outside, but inside you're full of death. Full of dead men's bones. Yes, it's just like this. It's such an such imagery. So I just think like, you know, going back to this is a speci this is a a marked uh temptation for uh spiritual leaders. We actually, I think, see that through line in the gospels because Jesus, Jesus continually draws attention to the lack of congruity between who they are and what they're doing. And there's this famous quote by Dallas Wheeler. He says, the main thing God gets out of your life is not the achievements you accomplish, it's the person you become. And so what if what if you are in a position of leadership or you're serving as a small group leader or whatever, and you just kept that front and center that the main thing that um God gets out of you is not the thing you're leading, the thing you're but it's just who you who you are becoming, i.e. more Christ-like. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I um uh I don't remember the exact passage, but uh Jesus is um crit criticizing the religious leaders, and he talks about how um you clean the outside of the cup, but but the inside's still dirty. He's like if you just clean the inside, the outside will become clean too. And it's just more more imagery for us to see because I think the imagery helps. It's like it you you can say things and be like, well, yeah, I I agree with all of that, but how much how much energy am I spending cleaning the outside of the cup? And and how much attention am I spending or and how much how much uh attention am I giving slash how much access am I giving to God and the Holy Spirit to work on the inside of my life in ways that maybe no one will ever see and or will become fruit much, much later.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's like continue this train of thought because we've sort of hinted at hey, um, this is a temptation for us to reverse these two. I think we all experience that. We also live in a culture where productivity is like an efficiency is a high value. So there's some cultural forces that cause us to reverse this. And you're right, Jesus kind of continually attacks this for the religious leaders. What does this do? When we reverse this, what's the result? Let's unpack that a little bit. Why does why does putting the do before the who, what like when you do that, what is the result?
SPEAKER_02:Well, going back to the verse that you were just talking about, Mac from Matthew 23, um Jesus uses the words you hypocrites. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You're like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside, but on the inside are full of bones of the dead and everything unclean. So that that word hypocrisy, I think, literally means like a split self. Like if we talk about, okay, it it um he's calling them hypocrites here. Why is that? It's because they're split. Like the interior life doesn't match the exterior life. And I I would say the same for us. Like when we prioritize the do, we start curating an image, whether that's of being competent, of being impressive, and being productive, even when our interior life doesn't necessarily match that. And that's not only inauthentic, it's actually internally exhausting because we end up creating an image that we have to keep up with. And it it leads to sort of a hidden hypocrisy where the inside of what's going on in us doesn't necessarily match the outside. And when Jesus uses that language, calling them hypocrites, I don't hear him like shaming them so much as I hear him inviting them to wholeness. Like if we think of the difference between having an inside and an outside that are split that don't match, um the the way to remedy that or the opposite of that would be wholeness, where they're consistent, where they match, where they fit together, that that the public matches the private. And I think what that the way we do that is when the who leads. Like when we lead with who we are inside, like you said, Josiah, if you clean the inside, the outside, um, the outside will become clean. When we lead with the who, our life becomes integrated, whole, consistent. Um, and I think that's the same for us. So I guess to answer your question, the problem I think it creates is just that hypocrisy, like that that split self.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, a lack of integrity or integration. Yeah. I I'm preaching this weekend on Jesus' um warning against uh religious leaders. He says, Woe to you, like beware or watch out for false prophets. And the the word there is pseudo-propheti, pseudo-fake, fake leaders. Prophets in the Old Testament were leaders, spiritual leaders. Um, and then he goes on to talk about how like uh you'll know them by their fruit. Uh good tree bears good fruit, bad tree bear bears bad fruit. Um, and and what strikes me is just like how the one of the reasons why uh we get duped, we we continually get duped by bad leaders is because we're measuring the wrong fruit. We're not measuring or paying attention to who they are, but rather we think the fruit is the do, the stuff they're able to accomplish. You know what I mean? And and so I feel like I developed a little list of like, here's some things that are due, but they're not who. Uh just because someone can quote the Bible doesn't mean they're living it. Knowing the Bible, knowing the Bible, isn't a character quality. Uh just because someone knows a lot of theology doesn't mean they know God. You can read a lot of books and have no intimacy with God. Just because someone leads another to Jesus doesn't mean they're actually walking with Jesus. Uh just because someone is competent doesn't mean they're Christ-like, competent at speaking, competent at leading. Just because someone has influence doesn't mean they have integrity. Just because someone's ministry looks successful numerically does not mean they're being faithful. And we can just point to so many examples of this in our own lifetime, where a celebrity pastor, and man, do we love our celebrities, a celebrity pastor appears to have all the good fruit based on the do. And then over time you discover, oh, but it's not coming from the who, you know, whether it's Ravi Zacharias or James McDonald or Bill Heibels or Mark Driscoll or Ted Haggard. Like we could just keep go, I could keep going on and on and on. Um, I subscribe to Julie Roy's um um, you know, email list. She's a reporter who has devoted her career to exposing scandals in the church, not out of spite, but out of a desire to help us move towards wholeness. Uh, because deeds done in darkness need to come to light so that we can attend to them, repent of them, and and become whole. You guys, every week I get probably two or three emails from her. And in every one of those emails are about three new reports coming out. Jeez. Some of them are high profile, you know, like most recently Robert Morris at Gateway Church, just horrific stuff. So she she does report on the big stuff. But quite frankly, you guys, a lot of them are like things you'll never hear about. They're sort of small churches in the middle of nowhere. Um, and same same pattern. Someone who didn't have the who was elevated to lead the do, and it ended up causing a major crisis.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, man. And to see that happen anywhere is not good. But to see it happen in ministry just feels like especially tough to stomach.
SPEAKER_01:Icky. Because um this is why it's so disorienting for communities, um, and especially for victims. And I speak from being on the inside of that is the very person who is entrusted to shepherd and care for you actually ends up abusing you. And I still have personal contacts in my life um where they're still recovering. Like they still have trauma in their bodies and can be easily triggered um because of the harm that was done to them. And that's why, honestly, throughout this isn't a new problem. It didn't start in the 1980s with uh uh Jim Baker. This goes back all the way to the Old Testament, like in Ezekiel, there's this scathing rebuke of the shepherds of Israel for not actually caring for the sheep of Israel, it's not. New. The abuse and misuse of power is not new. Which again is why uh especially when it comes to leadership, the the accent needs to be put on the who you are, not just being impressed by the things you can do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. And it it goes a step further because the leader ends up having so much influence. Um, this hypocrisy ends up creating whole cultures of toxicity. So now we're not and and w when when we say cultures, I think you can think of broad culture, but also more micro cultures, like this could be in your church, in your workplace, in your maybe even in your own family. Um it affects more than just the leader leading it, like you were saying. It's like these organizations, families, and relationships, um, overlooking issues for the sake of productivity and results, um, end up creating these toxic environments where um people are harmed when they should have been protected. Um and but then it reproduces itself in bad ways. So now the the fruit then falls and then starts producing bad fruit, where now the the whole culture has become about performance and reproduces other people who are going to perform before they attend to transformation.
SPEAKER_01:Because you reproduce who you are. I mean, that's what you're saying is you reproduce who you are. So if there's hidden hypocrisy in the leader, um, Katie, your point, you're you're not integrated, then that's gonna be reproduced in others and become a cultural phenomenon.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Well, yeah. I mean, just think about it. If I'm working in an environment where results are the only thing that matters and outcomes and measurables and those types of things, and I have something internally that doesn't fit in that scheme or that's not going to be rewarded, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna hide it. Right? So you're rewarding inauthenticity by only applauding what people can do. And I think you're right. That seeps, we always say tone at the top, like that's gonna seep in the whole culture.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, and then to uh uh borrow from Bon Jovi, the the end result of all of this is that we give love a bad name. Right? Touche. Uh I mean, honestly, because our greatest witness to a watching world is not what we do for Jesus. Um, our greatest witness is who we are, and people can sense it. They can sense it, they can sniff it out. Um, and unfortunately, this is where the church just has so much uh room to grow because we have created cultures of toxicity where the do matters more than the who, and we have some repair work to do, I think, witness-wise, because there isn't any built-in trust towards Christians, and it's all over the place. Brennan Manning um once said the single greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny him with their lifestyles. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02:Ouch.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what that reminds me of? A DC talk album.
SPEAKER_03:Yes!
SPEAKER_00:I knew it. Uh but there's other quotes that at the end of um Is it Jesus Freak? Maybe. It might be the song Jesus Freak or one of them on that album. Yeah, it's a Brendan Manning quote. Uh they quote Brennan Manning at the end of one of their songs. But it's just like a small recording.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and this sentiment, like Gandhi once said, I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
SPEAKER_02:Ouch. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um Yeah, there's so many quotes like this. Uh Nietzsche Nietzsche said, I might believe in the Redeemer if the followers looked more redeemed. You get what I'm saying? Like, this is the this this isn't just like uh insular to us. It has a very significant impact on how people perceive us. When there's a discrepancy between who we are and what we're doing, it's it gives love a bad name. It gives uh Jesus uh a bad name, and people have been like naming and s and and we don't need to be perfect. Here's the thing like it's not like oh, in order to give witness to Jesus, you have to be a perfect person. Um, no, they just want you to be honest about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and in fact, moving from the the do being the more important part and the who being more important um actually gives you permission to admit your mistakes.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Because now, now actually, and it it's the same thing. I if I if I screw up parenting, if I yell at my kids, um, or I I don't act in love, well then like to me, the the most important part is not did I mess up or trying to make sure I never mess up. It's simply pointing out, hey, this is where I messed up, and this doesn't align with God's heart for you. Like I didn't need to respond that way. I'm dealing with my own stuff. I just need to point it out. Now it like it repairs integrity, right? And but when the do becomes more important, now it's about trying to get results. How do I get my kids to behave better? How do I get home to everybody to fall in line with what I need? Um, how do I gain control over my kids' uh decision making and all those things? Um now I'm not gonna admit, I'm not gonna be vulnerable with my kids. I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna try to look as good as possible so that they're afraid to mess up or things like that. So anyway, I just name I'm I think it's it's helpful to name that this isn't about being perfect. In fact, um putting the right putting this in the right order actually allows us to be more honest about our mistakes and it actually restores witness. It doesn't, it doesn't harm it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And because we're perfect, like going back to the other axiom where God meets us in reality with perfect transforming love, we have permission to be honest. Like there's no shame in acknowledging those gaps and where we fall short because we're already loved and it doesn't change.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so being able to ignore and especially when you're talking to someone who maybe is wrapped up in that same dynamic of the do before the who, to watch someone courageously own their junk while being secure in the father's love is incr it gives incredible witness to the power of love.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, I think it'd be good to take a minute and um maybe just share how we experience the how strong the pull is to make this a default in it within church ministry. So where do where do we feel the pull to put the do before the who in um church ministry and and leadership?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, my goodness. Uh I think Katie, you and I are wired a lot of like, you know, hearing you describe your morning where your mind is racing and you know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but I have like a pause moment in my workday, somewhere between 11 and 2, just to stop working and to be with Jesus for let's just say 10 to 20 minutes, something like that. I can't tell you how hard it is to do that. Um, and I've actually spent a lot of time with my spiritual director unpacking why that is. And there's a lot of layers to it. One is because I think productivity is so much easier than character formation. It's just easier. It's easier to write an email than it is to sit with Jesus and you may not experience anything at all. It feels so unproductive, right? And it's a lot more uncomfortable to have to reflect on who you are and how you're showing up. It's a lot harder. It's a lot harder. You you're nodding.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, yeah, because I know you do that. And I've um tried to implement the same practice more successfully in some seasons than others for the same reasons. Like it's just sometimes you just flat out don't want to. Like sometimes it's just easier to sit and and be productive. So yeah, when you ask the question, Josiah, like, where do we experience this? My mind goes to where do I not experience this? Um, I'm taking some classes through a denomination right now to um work towards ordination. And even doing that feels like not productive. You know, it's good for me. I'm learning and I'm and there's there's assignments that really cause me to reflect and spend time with Jesus and do all that. And even sometimes I'm like, okay, what do I need to do to just like get these assignments? I just want to crank it out. And I'm constantly battling that temptation in my mind. Um, much less when I'm doing something something even quote unquote less productive, which is just spending time with Jesus for the sake of spending time with Jesus. There is something, especially in the middle of the day, when I'm in that mode of productivity, that's that just feels like it's almost impossible to pull away. I'm grappling this right now because I have a baby coming into some months. Congratulations. Um I'm already mentally preparing for maternity leave and grappling for this because that maternity leave is is hard for me for this very reason. Like I experience a lot of FOMO.
SPEAKER_01:Just gonna have to have so much fun this January.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've we've got another retreat.
SPEAKER_02:There's like nothing, everyone's just napping.
SPEAKER_00:Did you think about that when it's fun in planning when you're gonna have your baby?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I don't want to mess up in summer. That's no fun. There's tons of stuff happening in summer, but winter's like, you know, whatever. So I'm already starting to kind of work through what is that internal dialogue gonna be? And um, in some ways, it's like a forced gift for me to have to slow down and have more time. But let's be honest, you can have time, quote unquote, time off and and just fill it with other distractions. Like it's still intentional, even though you might have less on your plate in one sense. Um there's no guarantee that you're gonna take that time with Jesus. So it's work no matter what, no matter how much I have on my plate, it's always work to go to step outside of being productive and just saying, I'm gonna sit with Jesus and to your point Mac and knowing I might not get anything out of it. It's great when you have these really emotional times and Jesus, God reveals something to me, and I have a really good prayer or something heavy to bring to him or to work through or journal about or whatever. It's a whole nother thing when I don't feel like I necessarily have anything huge that I'm working through or praying for, but just still choosing to spend that time with him.
SPEAKER_01:There's a quote in a prayer book I have, and the first line in it says, above all, trust the slow work of God. And I would add to that, above all, trust the slow and often invisible work of God, because oftentimes I don't perceive it. But the the reality you're describing, Katie, and I very much feel like on the inside of that experience is the constant push and demand to do things to like my to-do list is so long every day. But it also seems to me that this has momentum to it. Like there's it's almost self-like the more I give myself to work, the less able I'm able to pause, which is why I think the midday pause is so, so challenging. We have to like actively resist it and slow down, which feels so unproductive, but is exactly what we need. Because when we live driven lives at a frenetic pace, we end up with disordered desires and preoccupations that prevent us from being present to the God who's present to us. That's the biggest stumbling block. The more I focus on the do, if it's not rooted in abiding, as you were naming, Josiah, the more I'm I'm I'm actually like untethered from Jesus, cluttered, disordered, preoccupied, and operating out of my own hustle.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I I think that I um I don't have the same defaults that you two do. He's laughing because he knows that I'm not productive. Um, no, I that that is not my strength is productivity and and getting lots of stuff done every day.
SPEAKER_01:But does that translate into automatic abiding? What? The kind of to the point of like, you you get what I'm saying? Like Katie was saying, hey, I'm really driven. That I have to work against that. I'm naming that too. You're like, that's not my wiring. And so I'm going, okay, but does that automatically mean you're just living a life of perfect abiding?
SPEAKER_00:No, no, it does not. Although there may be some things like I'm fine taking a break in an afternoon if I need to. Um, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm using it to connect to Jesus. I feel a, I feel very much a pull to um and I think we've we've we've talked about some of this before, how there's a there's a there's a subversive nature to church work in which it can feel like everything you're doing must be good because you're doing it for God. And I'm using air quotes. Um, but learning to discern what your motivations are for doing it, and being willing to admit that maybe not all of them are pure in heart. Right. So it is you can get accolades from doing church work that isn't necessarily what God is inviting you to, and it's not necessarily care character forming. Um, I think I I feel a pressure sometimes to produce results that will make people in church happy. So people are may feel more secure being a part of a church that has more people in the seats and um or has X, Y, and Z program that makes them feel proud to be a part of this church. It can be uh tempting to put that work um over the character forming work of God shaping a community to look like him and not just one individual person. Um and that work being slow can uh get it can be a sacrifice to say, no, we're we're not sacrificing the slow work of us being shaped as a community to try to get more results and compete with the church down the road. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Have you guys ever had the experience where um you're like, oh, I just I really I felt busy. I need some time with God. I'm really craving it. And then you get it and you're like, oh wait, but I don't actually want to do that on some level, you know? Like sometimes I'm like, oh, I just crave like a window of time to be with God. And then all of a sudden I find myself doing it. And I'm like, but I'd rather do this thing over here. Um so if I'm being really honest, yeah, I think it's hard no matter what, no matter whether my to-do-to-do list is long, or if it's not, like I there is a temptation that can that can creep in.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I would encourage our a couple things just to maybe encourage those of you who are listening. One is you're hearing that this temptation is real and normal. So just acknowledge that. That's helpful. Um, but continuing on the theme of honesty, when you're sitting in that place, Katie, where you've created space to be with Jesus, and you're like, ah, I don't really want this. I could I want to do this other thing that's easier or whatever. Even naming that to God can be helpful. Uh He can handle it, he knows it. Just name it, you know? Um, maybe let's talk about so we've talked about how we can flip this and it does bad work. Um, I think part of what motivates me to uh continue to try to replace being over doing is knowing that uh that's the way God created it to be and that it does good things. It does good things. It's it's good for me to put this in the proper order. Uh my friends Matt and Ben remind us that whatever God does through us, he'll always be doing in us, because God's project is creating a people who can share his life with them, with him. That's always going to mean the transformation of our character is more important than the accomplishments of our competency. So again, let's just like kind of fill out when we're actually living into God's design for us, focused on the who rather than do, what is what does that lead to? Uh what is what is the what is what is putting the the who before the do do? And maybe to just kick us off, I I think to your point, Katie, around the hidden hypocrisy, I think that's replaced by a deep congruence. I feel that integration. I I feel a sense of alignment between the public and the private. Um, I feel like I'm actually living from a place of identity, not trying to gain an identity. Um I feel as though I'm showing up honestly and authentically rather than uh wearing a mask or putting up walls so people don't see certain things about me. Like there's a deep congruence that begins to take shape that um I think creates a peace and confidence that otherwise is, you know, masked by is is full of insecurity and self-protection. Know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I heard uh I don't remember the guy's name, so forgive me. Um, but he was talking about he he does training with um people either in like military um spheres and other uh highly influential people. And one of the things he does is train people to become more more confident. And um, but he names a much of what you're saying is he said that there's no way to fake it. He said, fake confidence is arrogance. So he said that um often he said uh he said, and people can sniff it out a mile away, especially if they're in leadership environments where it's very competitive. People can sniff out if it's fake. And so he said there's no way to fake it. So the biggest thing you have to do is he he talks about congruence and just admitting where you can't do something. Um admitting when you can't do something very well out loud to yourself and to others is often the quickest way to build real confidence because it it helps you to own the fact that, hey, I'm not perfect in this, and that helps me be more confident in the things that that I am. And now that I there is a congruence between who I really am and what I say I am, um, that it like produces confidence as a fruit. And and it's actually much more humble than uh the way we like to perceive confidence sometimes, which is really just air arrogance.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I love that. I think, I mean, gosh, I can point to situations in my own life when I've been proximate to someone or maybe even under someone in authority where you kind of you you sense that there's like a confidence and they're trying to lead you or guide you or preaching at you or whatever. And you're like, I don't know that I want to follow you as a person, right? Like it's harder for me to receive what you're saying. It's it's easier for me to receive what you're saying if I can see who you are as a person, like and that um and that character is there. Well, then I want, I naturally want to follow you. So yeah, I think when we are, when who we are lines up with what we do, people can feel it. And that leads to trust. Like there's a trust that grows when our actions flow from like a healthy centered identity, which is what you're saying, rather than from a place of per pressure or performance. In other words, you're you're not really fooling anyone. You maybe you can for a short time, but I think it eventually um it eventually erodes relational trust and credibility rather than building it up. Um, and I'm sure we all have kind of a reference point for that, you know, for going like, yeah, I um I'm not sensing it. You're trying to push out some confidence, but I'm just not sensing it there. So if we really want to foster that relational trust and credibility, I think this is the work. When I think about times in my own life when I maybe chose what I when I wasn't able to be fully authentic, it's because I was maybe scared that I wouldn't be accepted or that I would have to portray something that wasn't um going to be rewarded or going to fit with the environment. And that actually did erode trust and credibility. Even though that wasn't my intention, I can point to the bad work that that did. And so even though it can be scary, even though it can require courage, I think just tending to who we are in Jesus is our first move and being honest about that with others, noting not needing others to validate who we are, but just starting with our our identity being firm in Jesus, that actually ends up creating space for authentic connection with other people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I I think that if you're in any position of leadership, um, I think people can very easily end up feeling like sort of pawns in your game uh when the do becomes like when it's flipped. So when it's not flipped and the who matters to you um for your own self, you start reproducing that in your leadership with other people. So now you're connecting with people genuinely to get to know them, not just to try to get them to change.
SPEAKER_02:What is this person good at?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like um and it helps in I found it like in ministry at church too. The it helps to like you can't fake wanting to get to know someone and and building, I think it just ends up building uh better relationships when when you care more about uh you know that God cares more about shaping who you are as a person um and who you are becoming, you start to care more about how like the who in yourself, and then that trickles out into your relationships. Now I care more about the who than the do and the competency, you know, whether you're raising kids or leading in an organization or just building friendships.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's a good point. We can't teach this to other people until we do it ourselves because they are going like people are going to sense if I'm leading in a ministry context, the people I'm leading will sense if I'm truly prioritizing my character in an authentic way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then that creates more space for them to do the same, which in turn builds trust between us.
SPEAKER_00:Like if I'm still there when they aren't as useful to me, if I'm still present to them, they're gonna that that builds trust. But in I think in church context, it it can be tempting to move on from people who are less, you know, quote unquote productive or things like that. Um, you know, if if it's not a win in that way.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And it reveals um it reveals, I think, a common thing that I notice among church leaders, particularly those with more narcissistic tendencies, where when the do is what's valued most, it's also then what they value about other people the most. And before you know it, those other people are characters in their story. And so maybe I'll just name this because maybe uh the person you're sitting across from isn't a character in your story. They're a human being created by God as part of God's story. And our primary work in relating to one another is to love each other in a way that helps them become the kind of person to think being all that God wants them to be. That's a different that will if if you're managing people, if you're a parent, if you that will fundamentally shift um a lot of your interactions, if that becomes an orienting a way of engaging with people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, my job as a parent is not to force my kids to become something that they were supposed to. And when I view them as their own character in God's story, it very much changes how I approach a conversation or how I manage my own anxiety when they're not when they're not behaving the way I wish they would. Um those are really helpful narratives to make sure to add to my list, you know, that like and and ru and reminders that when I'm anxious about how this person is behaving, I can remember that God cares about them more than I do. And they are their own character and their own story with God. And um my job just shifts.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's why I don't like the language um God use me for this or use us for that, because it's framed in terms of utility, as if we're instruments for God to use. And um and when that's our reference point, uh, it's subhuman that we're just instruments to be used rather than beloved people to experience relationship. And then that again, it affects the way we relate to the people around me. Other people become instruments to be used, focused on their doing, rather than people to be loved, focused on their being.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. It definitely exposes uh it it exposes how you might view God as as He and others, as He relates to you, that like, oh God use me. It's like, well, maybe maybe God isn't interested in using you for anything today. He just wants to be with you. Yeah, right. Um Yeah, I I think another way uh sort of like fruit that this ends up producing is just um it's just stability. That there's a deep sense of stability when you know that what you do um doesn't and your sense of being doesn't have to go up and down like a roller coaster based on how well things are going. Um I can know that I'm fully loved, and I can know that other people are fully loved by God. And no matter how things are going in my life, circumstances around me, all of those things can go up and down. But when who I am becomes the most important part of my discipleship and my walk with Jesus, um I don't have to measure all those things as uh as the measure of my my worth and value. And that just creates a peace and a and a sense of steadiness that is hard to find in today's world.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, when we get our ego bumps from what we can do and maybe other people noticing, right? We actually become really fragile and vulnerable to constant disappointments because the moment something doesn't go well, you fail at something, or maybe you do something well, you think you did well, and other people don't notice or appreciate what you do, it makes your sense of self-worth go down. You know?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um there's this Victor Frankel uh quote. He was a um a Jewish psychiatrist who survived the Holocaust in one of the Nazi uh concentration camps. And in his book, Man Search for Meaning, he says, Everything can be taken from a man but one thing. The last of the human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances to choose one's own way. And I just love that because in the context of a Nazi concentration camp where you're being stripped of pretty much every freedom, he's noting, hey, there's things that can't be taken away, no matter what they do. And that's to choose one's own way, one's attitude, one's goal, one's orientation. And that just rings true for me that um no matter what, that's the stability he's referring to is this focus on who you are and how you're showing up and the character you're becoming. Um, it's not something other people can like determine.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's stable, it's steady. Uh, how much more freeing? I've noticed this in my own life with even preaching a public moment. Early on, like I felt like maybe um uh needing to hear positive affirmation after a message, you know, needing to hear other people say, oh, that was really good or whatever, years ago. And as I did a lot of this work, I would honestly say most of the time when I'm done preaching, um, I don't I don't really need people to say something in order to feel a certain way about it. And that's growth. Like when the do isn't determining your sense of significance, you know, your sense of importance. I think that's that actually frees you up in some important ways.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, your identity is anchored in something deeper.
SPEAKER_01:Right. It just feels good. Imagine all the insecurity and fear you have. For instance, if you're preaching and every single time your identity's on the line. I mean, that would be horrible.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. The difficult part that keeps us from experiencing this stability is how difficult it is to sacrifice not taking credit for when things go well. So you have to be able to surrender when it's going great before things go bad. Because if you wait until things go bad, it'll just expose how disorienting it is when you try something and it doesn't work. Because the the temptation out there is not to the it's not tempting to feel the shame about things not working. The temptation is to take more and more credit or more responsibility for making the results happen. Because you can work really hard and make results happen. That's the reality of it. Yeah. And then you get duped into trusting that those are going to produce the thing that you want.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But so often, right, there are things that you can't control. And you can either ignore those or you can obsess about them and you can work harder and hustle harder to make it happen. And then you're just left with the collapse at the end of the day when it doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. We can build our ego. We can build our egos really big on our accomplishments, but the second it doesn't go well, it tops.
SPEAKER_01:Which is why character formation happens in the valley in the moments where it doesn't go well. And you can emerge out of the valley, you can emerge out of the uh uh seasons of failure in in a different way, such that now future success or fruitfulness isn't determining your level of significance, but it's independent of it. Yeah. Right? And proper credit is due to Jesus because he said, uh, apart from me, you can do nothing. Like apart from Jesus, we can't crank out fruit. You guys, we can't even manufacture fruit. You can manufacture things that look like fruit out of your own hustle, but that's different than the type of fruit that Jesus is promising in John chapter 15. All right, friends.
SPEAKER_02:Praxis Padcast.
SPEAKER_01:It's time for, it's praxis time. Um, we you guys are familiar. We try to end every episode with like not just general ideas, but concrete practices because that's how we grow by actually doing things with our bodies. So, what would you guys say in light of uh putting the who before the do? How can we live that out?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, maybe a first practice to name would be prioritizing prayer over productivity. And um, when I say that, I don't want to necessarily imply that they're mutually exclusive, right? It's not like you have to choose one or the other, but I do think it's about reordering where our energy begins. Like productivity starts by asking, what can I get done today? Prayer asks, who am I becoming as I go about this day? And that's just it's where you start. Where are you putting your best energy? Where are you rooting? Um, where are you rooting the time that you're about to spend, the energy, the resources you're about to give? I have a prayer on my desk. I don't remember it. I should have brought it. Um, but this that I just try to like, even if it's just, even if it's just a minute, even it's just 30 seconds, like just for me, taking that time just to pause and reflect and do a short little breath prayer or um a liturgical, whatever something that just kind of roots me in that sense of like, okay, God, I'm giving this to you. Help me to order my energy in the way that um that you want me to. And I think that's just one of the ways we train ourselves to let the who lead the do. Because when the prayer shapes who we are, again, everything else flows from that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think it doesn't have to be compartmentalized. It's like, here's my time for prayer, and then I go be productive.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:What you're describing it, I think, is different from that. Yes, to set aside times where you're disconnecting completely to give Jesus your 100% focus. But then there's this practicing God's presence as you go about your work along the way. Um, so that those so you're living an integrated life. We don't turn on God's presence and turn it off. We walk with God moment by moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's really good. Another practice we could name is to uh which I think I think this practice makes it makes its way into all of our podcast sevenths. I think. Um, but it it's there for a reason, is just to engage in regular self-reflection. Um you can't know what you don't know. So if you're going to attend to the work God is doing um in you to produce uh a good work and character and who you are, um, it's not gonna happen unless you become aware of it. So engaging in regular journaling exercises, or um possibly just uh looking back on your day to say how how did things go, or maybe something went really well, and you're like, hey, where did that happen? And or something didn't go well, and how did I experience that? All those kinds of things. So we can't know what we don't know, and we're not gonna grow unless we're able to identify it and attend to it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I would double click on that. I mean, that's the famous quote by Socrates, the unexamined life isn't worth living. So you've got to create space to examine and reflect. But maybe to step it, uh, take it one step further, the third practice would be to get to get feedback from others. And the reason why that's significant is because our self-uh reflection is limited by our self-perception. We can only see so much, and we all have blind spots. And so when it comes to who we are, our character, um, and especially our deficiencies, there's this law of involuntary self-disclosure. The people we're closest to inevitably experience our character gaps. They just do. And uh soliciting feedback from them, asking for it, giving them permission, requesting it, how did you experience me? What did you feel? And so on, um, that will accelerate, that will accelerate your character formation because they see gaps you don't, and and so on. I will say this if you choose to engage this practice, i.e., requesting feedback from other people and what they're noticing as they experience you, um it's gonna sting. It always does. Whenever you get constructive feedback, there's a sting to it. But I encourage you, it's sort of like a bee sting, only last a little bit. And then they've just given you a gift. A gift uh that's that kind of shines a spotlight on something that you can grow into. And if you're willing to do it, you'll become a more transformed person.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And to play good cop. Um, I would also want to name that if you are afraid of doing this with people who you trust and or following Jesus with you, um, there actually may be some opportunity for them to affirm some really cool things about you that you don't see about, that you don't necessarily see yourself. So, yes, there is the, there is the, hey, you're you're risking it because you'll probably learn some things about yourself that you're like, ooh, I didn't like seeing that. There's also going to be opportunity for people to affirm, like, hey, this is how we experience you, and this is like the value you add to our home and to our our organization, and they might appreciate your friendship in ways you, you know, there's there's we've done this practice, these practices in our staff gatherings. And um, so it could also produce some some healthy, good uh encouragement for you too.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good word, Josiah. Thanks for being the devil's advocate. I appreciate that. Um, thanks everybody for joining us. Uh, we hope you enjoyed today's episode. Um, we've received a lot of positive feedback on this series, especially with the God's Kingdom Looks Like Jesus' Ministry episode. That was a couple times ago. And so next time, in light of that, we're gonna take another pass at that one. And so it's gonna be like a 2.0 version. God's Kingdom Looks Like Jesus' Ministry 2.0. So we'll we'll we'll see you then.
SPEAKER_00:Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspoint WI.com. If you have any questions, comments, or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast.
