Praxis
Praxis
Trust Leads, Effort Follows
What if the order of your life is backwards? We’re tackling a simple idea with radical implications: trust leads and effort follows. Starting with Jesus’ baptism and temptation, we explore how identity received—not achievement earned—powered his ministry. From there, we trace how the New Testament consistently places grace before effort, and why that sequence frees us from the grind, clarifies our calling, and sustains real fruit.
We get honest about the cultural worship of hustle and how easily it sneaks into church life. From “pastorpreneur” pressures to BHAGs that sound holy but center ego, we challenge the metrics that define success. Instead of bigger buildings and busier calendars, we talk about character, faithfulness, and fruit that lasts. Along the way, we name the “religious false self,” the temptation to do impressive things for God without doing them with God, and the quiet erosion that happens when our worth rides on outcomes.
This conversation isn’t abstract. We share everyday moments where the order flips—sermon prep, worship leading, parenting, even a Sabbath gone sideways—and how small shifts recalibrate everything: prayer before action, rest before work, and identity before activity. Trust doesn’t cancel effort; it focuses it. When God initiates, God sustains. The result is a non-anxious presence, a deeper peace under pressure, and clearer discernment of where to put your best energy right now.
If this resonates, hit follow, share it with a friend who’s tired of running on empty, and leave a review. Tell us: where do you sense God inviting you to trust first this week?
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. We're in a series right now focused on our mental models for missional discipleship, a framework for living out our faith as disciples of Jesus in everyday life. Whether we're aware of it or not, we all have mental models, deep convictions and assumptions that shape how we see and take action in the world. Mental models are kind of like prescription lenses. While often invisible when wearing them, they consistently shape the way we think, feel, and act. So what were the mental models Jesus lived by? What convictions shaped how Jesus taught people, responded to needs, formed disciples, and joined God's mission in the world? That's what this series is all about. Each week, we're unpacking a key conviction that shaped Jesus' way of life and explore how it can shape ours too, as we seek to be a community of disciples living on mission in the way of Jesus. And today we're going to look at another core conviction, and it's this trust leads and effort follows. Let's do that. I'm Josiah, and I'm Mac.
SPEAKER_01:So it's kind of starting to feel like fall this week. Like this is a common conversation starter right now. It's still too hot.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's a little warm. It's fall, y'all.
SPEAKER_01:It's fall, y'all. Hashtag PSL. Do you guys know that reference? Pumpkin spice latte. Um I do really like pumpkin spice lattes. The thing I'm most excited about for fall is uh apple cider donuts. So we go to this place to go apple picking called Peck and Bushel to like an apple orchard maybe 30 minutes or so from here. And we've gone every year for a number of years, and they have the best apple cider donuts. Um and I need to go get one.
SPEAKER_03:I don't think I've ever had an apple cider donut. Ah, you're missing out. And I probably have. You think so? You've never really I don't think so. I I can't think of a time where I've ever and I love donuts.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, well, have you had a pumpkin spice latte?
SPEAKER_03:I'm not into those.
SPEAKER_01:Um have you tried one?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Um I'm wondering if when you go to this place and procure a delicious apple cider donut, if you could bring one back for me.
SPEAKER_07:I could.
SPEAKER_03:Will you? Yes.
SPEAKER_07:I always make an apple cider bunt cake. Oh, wow. That's one of my favorite things that I make and makes me look forward to this time of year all the time. So maybe I'll bring that in.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, bring it in. I would love that, Adam. Wow. So many treats.
SPEAKER_00:Anything else that you guys are excited about for fall?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I love cool, crisp mornings. I just love them. Yeah, I'm done with the heat. Yeah. I just I want to feel cold when I walk outside. I'm excited for it. Speaking of apple cider, um, I was having a little bit of acid reflux and Josie.
SPEAKER_01:Join the club. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And Josie was like, oh, you need she's been doing this for a year. She drinks a little bit of apple cider vinegar. Yeah, in the morning, she mixes it with water and shows, so she's like, you need to start doing this. And so uh for about three weeks now, I've been starting my day with Do you feel like it makes a difference? I it does make a difference, but it is the absolute worst way to start your day. Nothing is worse than that taste.
SPEAKER_00:You should get the gummies. They have apples that have been gummies, and they're actually good.
SPEAKER_02:I don't I don't think it I don't think the gummies do the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know. But I'm just saying it is so gross. Dude, I tried doing that for a long time. So especially if you fast in the morning and don't eat breakfast. Which I do. Supposed to be really good. Supposed to, and if they see me out, you could see me at home, I'm holding up air quotes. Supposed to do all these things. I don't know. I tried it and um I did it for a long time. And there was one morning I did it and I gagged so fast. Yes, I am like, I am done. It's so gross. I just like I don't know if I notice enough of the effects. I can't do it anymore.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I haven't given up yet, but I'm just kind of venting out loud. I this I don't know, new part of my routine I really loathe. Like, I don't like it. It's horrible.
SPEAKER_01:Do you take a shot of apple cider vinegar while cold plunging?
SPEAKER_03:No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_07:Um I think I think my bunt cake has similar effects to your health. So maybe we could just swap.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, if I could just take a bite of bunt cake rather than a chug uh some apple cider vinegar before I fast for the morning. Well, you know, speaking of acid reflux, um as Gerd. Uh, we're in a series focused on our mental models for missional discipleship. This is a framework for living out our faith and living our lives as disciples of Jesus. So each week we're exploring some of our core convictions or axiomatic truths that anchor us and guide us as we go about being a community of disciples who live on mission in the way of Jesus. We've covered a handful of these already. God's presence precedes our participation. God bends or stoops to meet us in reality, God is like Jesus. And then at our last episode, we talked about how God's kingdom looks like Jesus' ministry. And I think one of the key things we keep emphasizing is these aren't just our convictions. This is our attempt to sort of name here the lenses through which Jesus saw things that then shaped how he engaged the world and made disciples. Today we want to unpack another missional uh axiom, uh another core conviction, and it's this trust leads and effort follows. Trust leads and effort follows. Now, when we say this, we're trying to get at how people actually grow and learn to participate in God's mission. Trust is the starting point. Trust in God's character, trust in God's faithfulness, trust that God is always present at work. Trust is the engine that drives our growth and participation in what God is doing. And when trust is present, effort then like naturally follows, naturally flows from that. And this is not an effort driven by self-reliance or self-dependence, but an effort that is grace-guided, uh spirit-infused and faith-filled. The rub, though, is that, and we're going to get into this today, is that uh we often flip this, don't we? Rather than trust leading in our effort following, we often lead out with our effort as if everything depends on us. And so instead of receiving God's grace as a gift, we try to earn it through performance. Instead of resting and receiving God's love, we rely on accomplishing and achieving things to prove that we're lovable. Instead of trusting God's promises, we attempt to secure God's blessings through striving. Instead of embracing God's acceptance of us, we hustle and attempt to gain it from Him. So there's like this displacement of responsibility. It's all on us, and the truth is it's not. Right? So we flip this with effort first and trust maybe following. And this just isn't the way. I think we want to say this isn't the way God designed us. So we wanna, we wanna flip the flip. Uh, we want to reverse this uh by saying, look, no, trust comes first and then and then our effort, our effort follows.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I think uh that can't be stated strongly enough. You know, as uh Katie and I are both um, well actually you're done now, but leading some these some longer discipleship groups that they they last a whole year long. And Katie's done with discipleship. Yeah, she's done with discipline.
SPEAKER_05:I've mastered it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, um, but this is sort of the primary work of our personal discipleship is learning to accept who we are and accept our identity from Jesus rather than trying to prove it. And there are, I would say it's sort of like the root issue, the root of most of our issues comes from flipping this around.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's true. Bringing it back to those leadership intensives, those year-long groups that we teach. You're right. So much of what bubbles up in those groups is this question of do I have to prove my worth?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, it and am I out ahead of God trying to constantly sort of do things to prove who I am and to and to build my identity, or is my identity rooted in him? And I'm excited to get into that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, let's do that because um again, this is this is something I think um Jesus believed and pivoted out of. So maybe we could just start there. Um, if we're naming that trust comes first, then effort follows. How do we even see this showing up in Jesus' life and ministry? Where do you guys see or notice that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I think the first spot we should stop is um when Jesus is baptized. I think um this displays how Jesus whole Jesus' entire ministry flowed from his identity. Um if you remember the baptism moment, um, he's baptized, the clouds open, um the father said, This is my beloved son, and whom I'm well pleased. Um before any miracles, before Jesus achieved anything that he had set out to do, uh the father gave him his approval. And that sort of becomes the catalyst for now Jesus isn't striving um and he's not hustling to hear all the accolades and the admiration from the father or anyone really, because he gets to know who he is beforehand. And um so he knew he who he was before he had to do a thing to prove it. Um so it's a super important point to make right at the top that ge everything Jesus did flowed from a place of identity and knew who he was well before he had to do anything to prove it.
SPEAKER_03:Ah so I think I I think I hear you naming or describing and drawing attention to the sequence of things that the the baptism and that clear affirmation of Jesus' identity came before Jesus' uh public ministry, and that feels uh significant.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, and it also it also leads to what what was next is um when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. So he's tempted to be um Jesus was tempted to accept other methods of accomplishing the Father's will and to identify with different things than who he was, but Jesus didn't take the bait. And I think that sets us up for what it looks like. Okay, what did how did Jesus embody this? Well, the first thing was they were things happened in the right order. Jesus was able to receive who he was, apart from anything he had done to accomplish or earn anything, and then he was able to set out and do the ministry he was called to do after that.
SPEAKER_03:There's a similar order in all the epistles, too. Um, in other words, when Paul is writing to these churches, you'll notice a pattern in uh many of the letters. Romans, um, Colossians would be another one, Ephesians. The first chunk of the letter is devoted to explaining the gospel, like the good news of God's grace made available in and through Jesus. Um in Romans, it literally goes on for 11 chapters and ends with a doxology, like praising God for all that God has done in and through Jesus. It's only after that that then Paul shifts gears and begins, like kind of applying in light of this, then how are we supposed to live? Like, you know, Romans 12, therefore be renewed by the transforming of your mind. That comes right after like a long description of what God has done in and through Jesus. Same thing in Ephesians and Colossians, the first few chapters devoted to explaining the gospel. Therefore, then live in a manner worthy to which you have been called. And so even in, I guess, Paul's writings, it seems like he's intuiting or you know, getting this order correct, that it starts with grace, the grace of God available through Jesus, and then out of that we're to live into it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, I I see that. And it's it's really cool that we have Jesus as the example of like someone who did that first. He did that perfectly. Like even Jesus wasn't proving his worth, even Jesus received his identity from God before he did things. And I think we see this throughout his life, like you said, Josiah. Um, John 5.19 says, Very truly, I tell you, the son can do nothing by himself. He can do only what he sees the father doing. Because whatever the father does, the son also does. So yeah, I love this picture of Jesus like not hustling to make things happen, not trying to impress anyone. He's simply like watching what the father is doing, and then he's joining in. And when I think about that image of like, what is what is God doing? And then how do I join? That posture completely shifts how I think about my own life with God. Like it reminds me that God's the initiator. I'm not the one carrying the weight of making things happening for him. I'm invited to do things with him. Again, back to my tattoo that I referenced in our last episode. Like we're partakers of the divine nature.
SPEAKER_03:The times new Roman uh Greek.
SPEAKER_01:The Google Translate font. Um, but again, what it says in Greek is partakers in the divine nature. That's what this is. That's why, that's why I I chose that. It's because this it's a central idea that God is doing things at all times, and we're constantly to be looking that, looking at that, and then going, How do I, how do I join in? And honestly, I need that reminder daily because my default is always to run ahead with my own plans. So it's really cool to look at Jesus and go, ah, he did this. And he gave us the perfect example.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and again, the temptation as you're describing is just to do the exact opposite, and and including for pastors and those in ministry. I mean, maybe especially so, because many pastors, I think, go into ministry uh without an identity, and then they wrap their identity right around uh their ministry, and it just does really bad work, right? Oh, yeah. Um, because then their role as pastor gets intertwined with their identity, and this two sort of get fused together. This is why, and maybe this is a little bit of a joke, but I I I really don't like when people call me pastor Mac. I just don't like it because it almost feels like some of that fusion. I think many people say it out of like a term of respect or like so. I get the intention behind it. But part of me is like, well, we don't do this with almost any other profession. I mean, I know there's like, you know, doctor so-and-so or whatever, but I don't go, hey, nurse Josie or you know, accountant Frank, or like we don't do that.
SPEAKER_02:I do it with with with plumbers, though.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_00:The only thing I can think of when you say it is plumber Joe.
SPEAKER_07:That's exactly what came to mind first.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, God, I'm not alone.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you can't serve well, you can't serve other people well if you're needing something from them in order to get your identity needs met, right? You should say that again. Yeah, I was gonna say I don't think you can serve people well with self-sacrificial love if you are relying on them to get some of your own identity needs met. And I mean, this is the there was a book that kind of pinged me in the forehead. This was by Robert Mahullen Jr. He wrote a book um called The Deeper Journey. And the first chapter is devoted to your false self, which is who we are apart from God's, the identity God wants to give us. Like all of our hustle and our attempts to like build something out of ourselves, pull ourselves up by the bootstrap so we can feel good about who we are, right? And then the second chapter, and you're kind of like you read the first chapter, you're like, oh crap, like I do some of this stuff. It's not great. And then you get to the second chapter, which is entitled The Religious False Self. And he goes, Hey, do you want to know the difference between the false self and the religious false self? And then he answers it. He goes, You've only brought you brought God into it. So now you're still building a false self. You're just doing it with all this like religious pretense. You're doing it in the name of God. And this is exactly, you guys, what's happening in so many churches is pastors take positions, they're not operating out of what we see Jesus doing, a full sense of God's grace and receiving their identity, which is secure and firm, but out of their own anxiety and having no secure attachment to an identity from God, they try to build it. And they they're just doing it in God's name, so it looks really good. But in fact, it's no different than the false self that maybe a non-religious person is building. See what I'm saying? Yeah. And so it feels really significant to me to go back to what you were naming, Josiah, that um Jesus received his identity, uh, was secure in that identity, and even past identity tests in the wilderness before he stepped out and tried to do anything with or for God in the world.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. And that's an it's an it's an unfortunate reality that that is not necessarily how uh we train our pastors and ministers. Yeah, right. Forcing them to pass identity tests before we hand them ministry opportunities.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And then Katie, I think you said something really insightful, which is this is why later on, when Jesus is in his public ministry, you don't see him doing anything apart from his father. It's almost like the identity he received and had internalized um gave him a non-anxious presence not to have to do things apart from God. He was just able to be at ease and rest in and do whatever was being asked of him in the moment. And of course, the counter of that we see throughout the scriptures, you regularly see people who, out of their anxiety or a lack of identity, start doing things rather than waiting on God. You know, so like Abraham and Sarah, out of their anxiety, they try to fulfill God's promise, and Abraham ends up uh boinking Hagar. You know what I mean? Like, hey, I'll fill this, I'll fulfill this promise, right? It's ridiculous. Um, Israel, out of their anxiety.
SPEAKER_07:Which word will he go with?
SPEAKER_02:Well, when that's why I laughed because I was waiting. I was like, what is he gonna say? He ends up, and I'm like, Because I was like, they end up having a child. No, he went with the uh the cause, not the not the effect. I think we'll just leave it in. I think you should just leave it all in. I think that's okay.
SPEAKER_00:Can that be one of the buttons?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Just boinking. Just leave it in. Do we have any buttons?
SPEAKER_00:Praxis Pancast.
SPEAKER_03:I'm really waiting for that MM button. We need so many more buttons.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I really want the MM button. I listened to that song as Pastor Mac.
SPEAKER_03:Mandating that you complete that task by next. That's a direct order. Um, Pastor Mack. Yes. Uh perfect. All right. We see people regularly pivoting out, pivoting out of their anxiety and a lack of identity, and then doing things apart from God. Like Abraham and Sarah, out of their anxiety, um, they try to fulfill God's promise with Hagar, which isn't what God wanted them to do. The Israelites, out of their anxiety of Moses being on top of the mountain for so long, you know, construct a golden calf. Saul, out of his anxiety of Samuel not showing up, offers a sacrifice on his own. King David, out of his out of his own anxiety, takes a census. Like so many examples of people rather than resting in who they are as God's beloved children, uh, trusting in his activity, um, they get anxious and then they try to do things on their own to make things happen. And Jesus just, as you pointed out, Katie, I think, um consistently um refuses to do the same. It sort of reminds me of this. Maybe an image would help that gets at this point of like when you're yeah. Um my dad and I grew up hunting together. And um we in the past like, I don't know, 15, 20 years, we've had a couple dogs um that are wired hair pointing griffons. They're they're pointers. They're these are bird dogs. So like you go hunting for pheasant or grouse, and they're trained to kind of like scent the bird and then and then freeze and not move a muscle so they don't scare it away. And then you kind of are the one who goes up to startle the bird and so on. That's the way it's supposed to work. But early, you have to train them to get them to that level of cooperation, right? And I remember early on with our most recent dog, his name is Buckley, we would let him out and he'd be so excited that he wouldn't stay close or even point. He'd be like, I don't know, 50 yards ahead, scaring the birds away. You know what I mean? And uh I remember God kind of giving me that image in a prayer time like, hey, some of the things you're wanting to do, I want to, and yet you're like 50 yards ahead of me. Like slow down, trust me, you know, like we have to work in tandem. This doesn't work when you're 50 yards ahead or even lagging behind. We have to be in step with one another. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love that image because in that image, there are things that you can see that the dog doesn't see.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And yet he doesn't know that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And isn't that the same with us? Like there are so many variables and things going on behind the scenes, whether it's, you know, spiritual forces at work or um around stuff that God wants to do in us first before we do the quote unquote thing for him. I can't tell you how many times maybe that's happened in my life where it's like, yes, that's a good thing, but God maybe wants to do something in me first before I do that thing. And and we somehow forget that God sees the whole landscape and we see like a teeny tiny part of that.
SPEAKER_03:Have I ever told you the story of Tig's baptism?
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_03:This is a couple years ago. He, on his own initiative, was like, hey, I want to get baptized. And you know, he's in middle school, so I I'm like, okay, that's fine. And and so we did it, but he didn't want to do it here at the church. He really wanted it to be like a smaller thing at my parents' house. They live on a lake, surrounded by people who really know him and have invested in him. So we did it at the lake, and um, I was the one who baptized him. And um, after he was baptized, you know, people were kind of video recording the moment and taking pictures. And someone came up to me and showed me a picture, and just as he was coming up out of the water, some sort of bird went right over us and was like caught in the picture. I don't think it was a dove, but it was just kind of like this cool moment. It was just this cool moment to go, as uh as silly as it is, like the spirit was present in that moment. Yeah, and that's what also I think is significant. Um, Josiah U bringing up Jesus' baptism is it wasn't just a confirmation of his identity. It was also um like the spirit was present. And then, like from that moment on, you see Jesus, there's regular attention in the gospels being given to the fact that Jesus was operating out of full dependence on the spirit, including his next move, which was to go into the wilderness. He was led into the wilderness by the spirit, and then coming out of the wilderness, the authors say he returned to Galilee to launch his public ministry, quote unquote, full of the spirit. And so when we're operating out of a place of reception, receiving our identity and receiving the power of the Holy Spirit, we also won't get ahead, like you were talking about, Katie, but we'll be able to, whatever we're doing, we'll do in full dependence on God. And you regularly see Jesus doing this, like when he selects the 12 disciples, he spends an entire night in prayer before doing so. And when the disciples couldn't cast out a demon, and he uh shows up, he names hey, some of these can't be cast out without, you know, prayer and fasting and indictment, because you're trying to do it in your own strength and power. You know what I mean? So I guess what I'm saying is um this whole thing of Jesus starting with his identity and receiving um really fuels his entire ministry. He's not getting out ahead, and whatever he's doing, he's not doing in his own strength.
SPEAKER_01:And if Jesus operates that way, how much more are we to operate, right? Jesus was literally God in the flesh.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. And so it's crazy that our default is often the exact opposite. Like to draw attention to the point you just made, Katie. Like, my goodness, here is God in the flesh and he's doing these things. Jesus is doing these things. And we, who are clearly not God in the flesh, why is it then that we reverse this almost every day of our lives? Um, so why don't we speak to this? Like, why is this such a strong tendency for us to instead of start with trust and then go to effort, we flip this and begin with effort and maybe eventually get to trust.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I I kind of think in some ways this is the cultural water we swim in, you know. This is sort of the essence of in many ways, the essence of American culture. Like there's this unspoken rule that you work harder, prove yourself, keep climbing, and you know, you'll find success. And underneath that is this assumption that it's all on you. And I feel that all the time, as all the time, you guys, like as a parent in ministry. Um, every time you look on social media, there's like this subtle message that your worth comes from how well you're performing. There's all these different life hacks, there's all these ways to better your life or fit more in or have more well-adjusted kids or a cleaner house or like whatever. And so, especially in this era of technology, it feels like the goalpost is always moving kind of 10 feet ahead, and you're constantly hustling to keep up and you're constantly seeing more and more that you should be doing. And I think it it really pervades more than we're even aware of in this culture.
SPEAKER_03:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there seems to be like an identity uh displacement that's happening in our culture. Um, what do you do? Is often the like the first question people are asked. If you're meeting someone at a party or a gathering, it's like, hey, nice to meet you. So what do you do? Like, what does that reveal about what we value and what we care about in our culture and what we celebrate? I mean, this is the hallmark. Like, think about how many movies are like Rocky One, Rocky Two, Rocky. It's all it's we love these movies because they're people who are working hard and putting in a ton of effort to overcome obstacles and then become something. Achieve something great.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, it's true. And that's not that's not to say that we don't want to achieve great things in some ways. Like we we do, but when our effort is the thing that's leading us, we we risk we risk doing the thing that God isn't doing. And we risk doing it apart from it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we sort of take we could sort of uh elevate this idea of self- self-sufficiency, which is really good and and laudable in many ways in work ethic, but I think what we're saying is there's a shadow side, um, which can easily lead to this core belief that my worth is tied up in what I do and what I accomplish. I see that.
SPEAKER_03:I have this really controversial uh opinion about Rudy Rudiger. My dad went to Notre Dame, and I think they overlapped at some point. Oh, really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um that's a cool.
SPEAKER_03:But that's one of those stories that's sort of like celebrated of like hard work and motivation and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just see it so different. Often in light of this, like, think about all the guys who had to work a fraction of the uh they put a fraction of effort in and actually played every game. You know, because they actually knew, like, oh, who I am. Like this, you know what I mean? Like, I was giving it away. They contributed on a daily basis, not just for one play. Right. Right. And he worked so hard against his, I don't know, kind of his identity, his body type, all of that to have like this one moment. Um, I don't know. That's the way I see it.
SPEAKER_00:It's really interesting.
SPEAKER_02:I would not have been going. That's actually really interesting. Seems like a hero, but kind of a side. We are gonna step on some like core beliefs, like preciously held beliefs, if you try to say that Rudy wasn't a hero. But yeah, um, I think that is really interesting. That he spent so much time trying to do something he wasn't.
SPEAKER_03:Be something intrinsically very good at.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Right. To have one moment of glory.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Sorry to throw us off.
SPEAKER_01:Well, so Alex and I recently watched the Aaron Rodgers documentary and and the Brett Favre documentary, and you kind of see this as a thread looping through these like professional football football players, or really any professional athlete, like they get so wrapped up in their identity that then when they're done playing, they kind of go a little nuts.
SPEAKER_03:They have no idea what to do, they have no idea who they are.
SPEAKER_01:And there's just like this profound emptiness, and some people are more honest about it than others. You know, Johnny Cash wrote a song about this at the end of his career. Like people that have the these um these talents or these skills that just are praised over and over. You just see how that becomes innate in their identity, and then when they don't have it anymore, they're just lost.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and let's not just pretend that it's like athletes because it's also pastors. We wrap if you wrap your identity around your ministry. I know pastors who refuse to retire or don't because they don't know who they'd be without it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, you're kudos to your dad. Your dad just uh finished how many years of ministry?
SPEAKER_02:Um, well, the the church is it's their 40th ministry since it started. So he was doing it before then too.
SPEAKER_03:But yeah, but retired this month, and um that's just super neat. Um, that's super neat to have served a community for that long faithfully. Um but there is something to that to go, oh, my identity isn't determined by what I do in this space. I can, you know, step aside and empower other people and and all of that good stuff. We often think that this is just the we often think we can see this in the culture, but here's the thing, you guys, is that the church, like it or not, often mimics our surrounding culture.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, don't think that those cultural waters haven't leaked their way into our churches. Um I think that we like to use in church, we use language that allows us to uh bless our efforts in the name of God, but really it's still our efforts to try to do something that we have determined like is the thing we are supposed to be doing. Right? How often do we we ask God to bless the thing we are going to do before really trying to identify what it is that we're doing and making sure that it is in step with the spirit?
SPEAKER_03:Like the cultural water that people are drinking out there has somehow gotten into our church bubblers. You know, like we're sipping it too. I remember years ago when Jim Collins wrote that book, uh Good to Great. In that book, he talks about B Hags, big, hairy, audacious goals. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was like all of a sudden, all the church, all pastors are talking about like, we gotta come up with some bhags, big, hairy, audacious goals, and get some vision and momentum around it. And I'm just like, really? Like, again, if you're part of our church, you know this, but our the the way we go about being the church is not uh us as a staff or Mac goes up on a um, you know, Mount Olympia in O'Connor and comes back with some bhags for our church to get excited about. Like, you know what I mean? Isn't that what it's called Mount Olympia? Yeah, I know that's funny.
SPEAKER_05:Olympia.
SPEAKER_03:Mount Olympia is a strong word. Garbage dump garbage dump. But you get what I'm saying? Like it's like we're coming up with great things we could do for God that really are about boosting our own ego rather than just starting with what is God doing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I will name that it is difficult to identify. And that's sort of the sinister nature of how this stuff has impacted our church cultures from the outside culture. Is how are you supposed to fault someone for having a big goal of reaching a lot of people? Right? Like on paper, it's like, oh, how wonderful! Like you just want to save a lot of people, or you want to reach a lot of people, you want to feed a lot of people. You have all these like big goals, and they're they're stamped with uh, like I said, language and efforts that will in turn help people. So, how are you supposed to call attention to some ulterior motives? But I think that it's worth naming, and it's important for us to name that often these types of efforts are are driven from our own internal drives to try to like be something that we're either not or we're doing it regardless of how God feels about it. Yeah, there's or or what God is doing.
SPEAKER_03:Right. It's almost like we make an an idol out of spiritual impact.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:For God. And that's really difficult to identify when you're in it, because how are you supposed to question someone's motive if they're trying to help people?
SPEAKER_03:Right. Well, my our hunting dog was sincerely motivated to get birds. Yes. But doing it but he couldn't do it on his own. He just scared him away.
SPEAKER_02:So what's the risk then? If it's in if if this is what we're doing, we're flipping the script and we're we're or putting the cart before the horse, then to play the play devil's advocate here. Like if we're still reaching people, then is it really that big of a deal? If our effort is producing results, then then what's the risk? If the results are helping people and having a bigger church and reaching lots of people, then what's the then why do we need to correct it?
SPEAKER_01:I feel like the result so the word results raises a lot of questions for me, right? Like sometimes we think we're seeing results and there's more going on behind the scenes. I think sometimes kingdom fruit uh isn't always immediately evident. You know? Like I can't I've I just spent a year again walking with a group of five women, and someone might look at that and go, wow, you take that hour and a half every week, and you only spent it on five women. You could have done a lot more than that and had a bigger quote unquote impact. But there's something that happens when you just didn't kind of go where God is leading and you're faithful and you kind of leave the results to Him. Just my thought.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we need to measure what matters. Um, and I think when you like Katie, when you say, hey, the word results, I have all kinds of questions about what kind of results are you referring to. And quite frankly, I feel less need to speak to how um the results that historically are celebrated really aren't doing what they think that there's just been so much research and study to show that, like, hey, us quote unquote reaching people isn't actually helping them become disciples who are mature in Jesus. The ultimate thing we need to measure is character.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:That's what Kingdom Fruit is all about, is actually becoming the kind of people who look and love like Jesus and do his teachings. And um, if we're measuring anything other than that and holding up as a success, then we're not being faithful to the way of Jesus. We we've sort of co-opted the traditional metrics of mega church of the megachurch mentality that's about budgets, bigger budgets, bigger buildings, and more butts in the seat. Uh I thought you were gonna say bigger butts. Bigger butts. That too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I um I agree with you all. I was I was naming it as like, I wonder if someone would think that. We were just being the devil. I thought that was. Yeah, changing the metrics matters. Um, and I don't know about you guys, but I I think it's really easy to fall prey to some to some of these uh ways of seeing how our effort matters and and how it matters more than trying to be in step with the spirit. Um, because uh it's really tempting to use these metrics as a measurement of if we're doing a good job or not. Like how many people are coming to church, how many salvations, how, how many this, how, how many that. You have all these different metrics and you're using them, and it's really easy to get your worth and value as a church leader from those metrics.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, totally. I heard this term recently, pastorpreneur. That's funny. And that, like, for me, honestly, it sort of captures what I think a lot of pastors feel in terms of external pressure. That you're supposed to be like a pastorpreneur who is like, you know, being innovative and cutting edge and building something new that's let's becoming increasingly successful uh successful and building a brand for you know what I mean? And uh my goodness, that just to me does really bad work. So instead of just focusing out there, here's where we see this problem. Um, I feel acutely aware of this tension almost every day. And Katie, you alluded to this as well. Let's unpack that a little bit. Where do you guys feel this flip of effort first, trust maybe later, um, versus trust first and then effort following?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I think it's most obvious to me in the workplace because it's like I s the more moment I sit down at my computer in the morning, it's like I have all these different things that I could put effort effort into, and I should do this and I should do that. And for me, it feels good to get things done. I think I've told you guys I use some like task manager app and I got like the master of productivity. And that's kind of a bad joke, anyways. Yeah, in the office. But I love to feel productive. And so even the small moment, like before I dive into work or before I dive into a task, just to pause and say, okay, God, where do you want me to put my best energy today? How do you want me to sort of tackle all the things that are in front of me? Like that can feel small, but it's been a little practice for me of going, okay, God, you're out ahead of me in this work. And yes, I'm going to be expending effort and using my brain and doing all these things, but um, help me to follow your lead and how I'm orienting to all this. Another example is just with my family. So just a couple weeks ago, you guys, um we try to practice Sabbath Friday nights. We go through seasons where we're more committed and then it seasons where it falls off a little bit. But we had a really busy week. I was really excited to practice a Sabbath with my family, and it like totally fell apart. Like, I don't know. It was a Friday night. Alex had to go somewhere, got home late. So we started late. Then I had like some things I wanted to do to kind of set the rhythm for it. And the kids were crabby and arguing, and I just got so frustrated. Like, okay, I am trying to like instill this important Jesus-looking practice with my family, and it looks nothing like Jesus, and this isn't going anywhere, and this isn't the image of like holding hands and seeing what we're grateful for and talking about Bible stories or whatever I had in my mind. Um tell me more about the channel.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It doesn't sound nice at all.
SPEAKER_01:Where I'm going with that is even in that moment, like the setback of saying, hey, I was really trying to do something good here, and I put effort into setting our family up to have a Sabbath night. You know, my thought ahead about things that we could do. But even in that moment where I was trying for a quote-unquote laudable goal, um, the setback, I think, offered me an opportunity to go, okay, I'm expending a whole lot of effort. This isn't at all going the way I want it to, even though I think it would be really good for our family. God, I'm feeling really crabby. Show me where you're at work. I'm just like, you know what I mean? There's a lot happening that's outside of my control. Show me where you're at work in the middle of this dumpster fire and how I can join your work in my kids' lives and my husband's life and my family's life, even though it's not at all going the way I want it to. So, like in that moment, I had a choice to double down in my effort or to sort of take the my foot off the gas and sort of choose to trust God in that moment. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03:Makes total sense. Makes total sense. Um and how would you describe if we could go back into that moment? When did you realize oh my effort is being, I'm kind of working, I'm trying to force something here versus like kind of slowing down and and getting present to God. Because that's that seems to be like a key moment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I noticed myself being really crabby. Like we had had a really busy week, and I really wanted this just like connection time as a family, and it wasn't happening, and people were just crabby with each other. And I just noticed myself being really disappointed and really crabby. And then I just had a check of like, okay, and how am I going to be present the rest of the night in light of that?
SPEAKER_03:I just got done with a call with my spiritual director. And um he always starts by we start in prayer, and then he says, What do you want to bring today? And I brought up kind of what we're talking about here. I just said, My life feels so full, it's fast paced right now. And then I talked about Dallas Willard's quote to John Orperg, you must ruthlessly eliminate hurry from your life, for hurry is a great enemy of spiritual formation. And I was like, I feel like I have a voice on like one shoulder being like, you're going to fast shame on you. And yet I don't think that can change right now. And I don't feel part of me doesn't feel guilty about it. And then I consider Jesus, and he had like a lot of full days that were really productive, you know? So we started talking about this that it like maybe we need to parse out when is hurry bad, and just instead of assuming it's all bad, or when is fullness bad. And part of kind of where we landed was that um it becomes negative when it interrupts our connection with Jesus and or when our character starts to leak out sideways. Like we begin to become reactive. And the key is to notice when we're disturbed, when there's some sort of disturbance, not just outside of us, but in us. And I just thought that was it was such a helpful conversation for me this morning because I'm realizing, okay, yes, there are times when like I am, I have a full day and I felt like I was like in the flow with the Holy Spirit the entire day doing what God had put before me. The pace wasn't exactly the problem. But there are other times like there's a dumpster fire at home, and you're trying to create a Sabbath of peace, and you're like banging your head against the wall. You know what I mean? And all of a sudden I'm really crabby. And those are the moments to kind of take the foot off the accelerator, slow down, and attend to attend to our identity, attend to what God is doing, and get re-centered. I just think that's such a perfect example.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. No, it is true. Sometimes we we live out of this belief that um my effort will produce a certain amount of output. Like if like if I give X amount of output units, it's gonna equal a certain amount of productivity. It's gonna produce something. And I think what it it sounds like what what we're naming is learning to a lot, like it's not necessarily the the pace of life in which you're in, it's more about where your effort is going and being able to um learn your like identity and trusting God first allows us to align our efforts in things that are actually going to produce the type of kingdom results that actually matter. And sometimes our hustle and our push, it creates the frustration because we're we're met without the results that we were subconsciously uh expecting to come back on us.
SPEAKER_03:My first formation, um you guys totally works against this default of like this this way God designed it to be, which is to receive first, then followed by trust-filled effort. Um, I grew up in a family, and much of this is good. It's not bad, but like just such uh I have all these little phrases in in my mind that were instilled on me, emphasizing hard work and not quitting or giving up. You know, do today what others don't do, so you can do tomorrow what others can't do. My dad would often tell me, like, you're to be the first one on the ice for hockey and the last one to get off every time. Ever you know what I mean? It was just like this you don't quit. You you're always more effort, always try harder. Uh a couple days ago on Tuesday, I was doing a workout and it involved some 400 meter runs and it had just rained. So I'm running outside, and this guy is on an electric bike and he was going way too fast, tries to take the a turn and wipes out, like kind of sideways. And he was it was fine, but he like he didn't like hit his head or anything like that. Um, but he got up kind of slowly. I stopped, I was like, Are you okay? He's like, I think so. And then he just kind of like stood there for I don't know, five, 10 minutes, just kind of regathering himself. And I had this moment in my I continued, I started my workout after I knew he was okay, kind of continuing my workout, but I had this realization if that were me, I wouldn't have paused. I would have picked up the bike, got right back on it, and kept going. You know? And I just had this realization that like this is not good. Like that is not a good thing to have your default to be. Yeah, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. And so I feel almost in every area of life, you guys, this tension of starting with effort rather than reception.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Even in my time with Jesus, there's this desire to make something happen, to manufacture a moment rather than just like out of all places, to sip, sit and receive. Every day, Katie, I feel that tension of looking at my to-do list and feeling like it's actually counterproductive to pause and start with prayer, even though I know it's not. You know, relational stuff. How often in your marriage or with parenting do you notice a problem and you're the oh my goodness, like the default is to try to jump in and fix it or to solve it to relieve, you'll try to alleviate the anxiety. Um, preaching, you guys, every week, every time I prepare a message, it's like, okay, how much effort? Where is my effort going? Am I cooperating with God? Some of the messages that I think have been the most powerful have been when I felt least prepared. And that's not an excuse for not preparing. I've had plenty that go well because I prepare. But again, it just highlights this how much of this am I owning, as if it's all on me, versus learning how to like operate with trust and reception being the starting point. I feel this everywhere.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah. I feel it, you know, leading worship from stage uh the uh a few different ways. One is uh it's it's tempting to want to make like, hey, if I push more and if I get the perfect songs and we get the right band and the right music and get the right arrangement, Jesus will return. Then yeah, but then then people are gonna experience something bigger when um, but that's a temptation because one, it's also like it implies that I can somehow usher in what God wants to do, that he's his hands are tied until I pick the right song. It seems kind of silly. Uh it also has the negative flip side, which is when people don't respond, now I feel like a failure. And in reality, if I am faithful to Jesus and I put out there what I was um asked to do, and I do that in service to Jesus and working with him, and people choose to not respond in worship or in kind towards God's activity, it says way more about them than it does about me. Yeah, just blame it on their hard-heartedness. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Just decent.
SPEAKER_00:Count the number of hands in the air, and that's how good of a job you've done.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and or or or it also has the effect of um you get up there and um there's not as many people in the seats, and somehow you're tempted to think it's less significant, right? Because it's less, oh, like, should I put in less effort here because not as many people are here, and it won't feel I won't get the same type of feedback from from singing and and worshiping. And um, so there's lots of temptations. Uh they're like all over the place.
SPEAKER_03:So in light of that, these temptations are everywhere. What does leading with trust and following with effort do? Like if we can learn how to embrace the way of Jesus here, um, what does it actually do for us?
SPEAKER_01:We've talked about identity a couple of times already. And I think um, I mean, that comes to mind. Leading with trust roots us in our identity, just like Jesus was rooted in his identity before he went on and did anything. When I start with trust, I remember who I am apart from what I do, which means my identity isn't writing on my accomplishments or my failures. It's secure in who I am as a child of God. Like that's it. My accomplishments don't hold the power to determine my value of worth. I'm not on this roller coaster of like, oh, I did something really well. I give I feel like that sermon went across really good. Like awesome. So I'm like up here, and then all of a sudden, uh that kind of stunk, and now I'm down here. Yeah. Right? Like it sort of roots us in that place.
SPEAKER_02:I got five compliments in the foyer after my message.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00:It's more of like an anchor.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And then next time someone gets mad at you, which has happened to me, and now I'm in the dumps.
SPEAKER_05:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:So it kind of gets you off the roller, the identity roller coaster and gives you a place of rootedness and sort of consistency to land on. Yep. Right.
SPEAKER_05:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I remember when I was in college, this um I I I grabbed a list of all like kind of characteristics or um verses that pointed to who you are in Christ. So things like you're a new creation or um God delights in you, that you're adopted, you're forgiven, you're righteous. Like there's you can Google it and you'll find a list of 20 some things that point to your secure identity because of Jesus. And I remember for the better part of a year, slowly just working through each one, like not just memorizing the verses associated with it, but trying to internalize it. How do I experience this as true? Jesus, if this is who I am in you, um, let me sit with you and and and receive this in a way that isn't just in my head, but becomes part of my settled disposition. And it was really formative for me. It was such a good, I mean, honestly, as I'm talking a lot, I probably should go back to that again and do it again, you know? Yeah. It was so good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I also think trust clarifies where our efforts should go. So trust, it's sort of it it connects us to a foundation that isn't made of sand. And that brings about a lot of uh benefits. Um like if if our energy if our efforts apart from God's activity, um they end up, they have shaky and temporary type of results. Um but when um we start with trust and identity, uh, we can operate out of principles and conviction rather than just focusing efforts where we get the most results.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, imagine if Jesus hadn't prayed for the entire night before he chose the 12, just sort of did it haphazardly and then invested all of his three years of energy into the wrong people.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, and I think of like, okay, so every year as a staff in January, we kind of create some balcony space to go, where are we and what does God want us to focus on this year? And then that sets up our effort, our staff time effort for the rest of the year. And that's been a really good practice for us. There's a really scary passage in First Corinthians three where Paul talks about like, hey, some of you will be saved, but through fire, like it some of it is straw and it will be burned up. It really points to this reality that we can be putting our effort into things that won't last. And what makes it last is is this where God wants me to be?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:What else?
SPEAKER_01:I also think this idea of trusting first sustains our efforts along the way. So think about like when I have this great idea and I'm like, I'm gonna go do this thing. How often is it easy to get started with a ton of energy and excitement and you know, big plans, and then you run, you hit a couple roadblocks or a setback, and it's like, oh, this isn't this isn't working the way I wanted it to. But when we're rooted in this idea of like trusting God and following his lead, I think it just that word sustaining really comes to mind. Like it keeps me from burning out because I know that outcome isn't ultimately on me. And if God's if God is the one initiating it and leading it and out ahead of me, well then he's gonna sustain it along the way.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, there have been so many times where I've wanted to call it quits, if I'm honest. Like, I mean, we've been through some tough stuff as a church, you know? Um COVID. All that was 2020. COVID, election year, racial tensions. It was not a fun time being a pastor. Um, not at all. And what I've noticed is really what sustains me and helps me keep putting one foot in front of the other, particularly in those challenging moments, is that real sense of, hey, this is who you are. This is what I've called and gifted you to do, you know? And you see that in the in in the stories of scripture. I mean, like some of the passages are stories where God calls a prophet, you know, like Jeremiah. And of course, there's some resistance at first. He doesn't want to do it, but he's like, No, I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm with you. They don't step in, it just goes easy. Like they step into what God's asking them to do, and it's really hard. And that moment of receiving their identity as like a prophet and and and and trusting themselves into God's care and that God goes with them is what sustains them through all the twists and turns along the way. So I think I think you're right that um it sustains us, it encourages us to continue to persevere. Going back to something you said in similar, Josiah, not only does it, I think, focus our efforts, but it sort of uh gives us the best possibility of fruitfulness. Like if if we're putting our energy towards the things that God has put before us instead of our own Bhags. And if we're doing it in a like spirit-dependent way rather than a self-reliance pivoting out of self-reliance, out of a fullness of identity rather than some pathetic attempt to get an identity. Well, our efforts are probably have the best chance of being fruitful because they're done in cooperation with God rather than our own efforts. I mean, there's that psalm that says, unless the Lord builds the house, the laborers labor in vain. That's kind of what I'm getting at. It's like when we actually start with receiving and then our effort follows, we know we're not laboring in vain.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, and then faithfulness becomes the measure of success rather than all the other things that can tempt us away from something else.
SPEAKER_03:Which we can't control.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Most of the time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Faithfulness becomes the measure of success. That's the question to be asking is am I faithfully pursuing God's lead?
SPEAKER_02:Faithfulness becoming the measure of our success brings so many benefits to following Jesus because I mean, especially as like a in church leadership, you're up on stage, and especially for, you know, I do something, you know, I'm doing music and uh connecting in that way, it's like I said before, it's very easy to fall prey to the temptation to think that if I do it better, that it will produce more results. And um, there are so many variables to how other people show up in that type of space and what it looks like. And it is so it's sobering, but also so helpful to walk into Sunday and be um, I'm faithfully showing up to do what I sensed, what I sense God is inviting me to do, doing it well. And if I was faithful, I did it. And that's enough. And sort of like r release the the fruit bearing and everything else that needs to happen is like I okay, if I'm being my job is to like figure out what it looks like to be faithful, to discern that in a community of other people who are doing it as well, and then do it, and then I can go home and feel good about that.
SPEAKER_03:What's that serenity prayer? How does it go? Like, grant me the grace to God.
SPEAKER_01:Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.
SPEAKER_02:I love you read it from a graphic with swirly fonts.
SPEAKER_01:The first thing that came up.
SPEAKER_02:Something that looks like it'd be printed up in a kitchen somewhere.
SPEAKER_03:There's obviously a lot of wisdom baked into that prayer, and I think it captures some of what you're getting at, Josiah, which is there is a real peace that comes when you focus on what you can focus on. Yeah. What you can change, and you give yourself to that with courage and faithfulness, but then you just rest and let go of the things that really aren't in your control that you can't change. And knowing the difference between those two really brings about peace.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, trust produces peace. There and it leads to a strength of conviction that isn't insecure. I've found that to be very true in my own life as you continue to focus on the the identity piece, the the trusting God piece, the the all the other stuff is I can rest knowing that the work didn't start with me and it's not going to finish with me either. There's something that's actually very freeing to know that I'm not as important as I think I am. Yes. Right. And maybe some people need to hear that they're more important than they think they are. But sometimes for me, it's helpful to be to be like, you know, my significance. In the world is already predetermined because God loves me and has imparted to me an identity that's more valuable than anything I could earn. And so my job as I sit and be faithful and uh and discern what it what it looks like to work with God and to understand who I am gives me a uh a confidence that I can't produce on my own. And that confidence really is a a piece when it comes to leadership and being in a position where you're um you could be getting it from something else. So it's a it's a confidence in who God is, who I am, and that um what I do is aligned with what he's doing.
SPEAKER_03:Totally. I was in Indianapolis this past weekend doing some training alongside uh Trisha Taylor, and we were talking about her husband, who's a pastor, and he's probably nearing retirement, I would imagine, at some point. But she we were in kind of like a mega church setting. It was a big church, and and she was saying, Yeah, uh, my husband would, this is not like where he would feel at home. He uh he said a long time ago at the very beginning, I'm a country doctor. Uh kind of a rural doctor. And and I just thought, man, um, that's really neat that he knew right from the start, this is how I'm wired, this is the population I'm gonna serve. And going back to the cultural piece when there's so much pressure to be a big deal and how much peace he probably experiences just knowing this is where God's placed me and how God's wired me. I'm gonna be faithful to that. Yeah. Well, this has been good, you guys. It's good. Um, and now it is praxis time.
SPEAKER_00:Praxis podcast.
SPEAKER_03:So do you see how I've massed it? That was very simple. Thank you. Um, so let's get into it. We always want to end with like some concrete practices. So this isn't just an abstract conversation, but you're walking away with like, I'm gonna actually do something different in light of this conversation. So a couple practices, and the first one is put your identity before activity. I mentioned um earlier this list of verses that speak to your identity. Your identity is now hidden in Christ. And so I really encourage you, if you've never done that exercise, go Google it. It'll give you a laundry list of verses to work through and just do the slow work. Don't hustle through it, but just begin internalizing this is who I am in Christ and receive that, not just in your head, but in your heart in a way that becomes like a settled conviction that shapes who you are and how you orient to literally everything happening around you. Yeah, that's so good.
SPEAKER_07:If I can add something to tie back to one of our previous episodes, I'm I'm guessing, or at least it's occurring to me, that uh our view of God or even our false sense of who God is is probably going to also motivate our efforts. Like if we see God as a distant deity, we're gonna like that anxiety is going to uh produce efforts that aren't necessary. Um uh if we see God as a harsh critic, um, that's gonna motivate efforts that again are unnecessary or out of line with what God actually wants for you. So um yeah, in addition to receiving your own identity, maybe checking or listening to that podcast that we did uh before, um, just ensuring that who you see God as is really who he is. Um I love that.
SPEAKER_01:I think one thing we say in our leadership intensives is who is God and who am I in light of that?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and this that's such a good word, you guys. So this list of what's my identity in Christ, it does. It reveals something about God and you. And and the goal is to internalize both of those things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it and often it needs to start with God because we sometimes have jacked up views of who God is, and then that jacks up our view of ourselves. So Adam, you don't say a lot of words, but when you do, it's brilliant. Yeah. Uh another practice uh we would name is the is prayer before action. Katie, you mentioned this earlier of this idea that when when the day gets busy, when you have a lot of stuff on your plate, our temptation is uh is to avoid going to prayer because we have too much to do. And and maybe use that as a prompt. Anytime you feel too busy, that would be an indication uh that actually I'm that I'm even in more need of stopping to pray first because I may run way out ahead, just like the dog uh that's bird hunting. So um yeah, be it could be at uh at the beginning of your day, could be in the middle of the of the day, uh stopping before you do things. Um maybe you do things as a family or as a couple, like before you're gonna talk about finances or something, just a tiny little stop to say, okay, we're just gonna pray and ask God to keep us aligned.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we really tried to do that as a staff in 2024. That was kind of our one thing we focused on as a staff was spirit dependence and prayer. And we tried to, as a practice, like just commit to pausing and praying before our meetings together. And and it's fun to see how that has become rhythmic and habitual rather than like this thing that's new and hard to practice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, and it doesn't always take you don't always need like an hour, you know. It's great if you have that time, but it, you know, you don't you can pause and pray really at any point. Uh a third practice I would name is rest before work. So I talked about how our family tries to practice the Sabbath, and just I think that's just this whether it's a an actual Sabbath practice once a week or just a moment to rest, can be one of the most countercultural ways I think we can live this out this out. Like resting before we work. Um, taking a Sabbath, even if it's just once a month, not to get more out of the week or the month, but as a way of declaring my life is not upheld by my effort, it's upheld by God. And it's been my personal experience that in that space of rest, I actually learned to trust God more because I end up seeing how He's at work when I'm not doing anything.
SPEAKER_03:That's a good word. Do you know that this is our 50th episode? Whoa. Yeah. Well, I remember before we started this having a fair amount of anxiety, like, hey, are we gonna have anything to say? Will people even listen? This is gonna be total flop.
SPEAKER_05:Will it be a flop?
SPEAKER_03:So it's fun to be 50 episodes in and still um talking about how to follow Jesus faithfully. It's been fun to partner with you guys in this work.
SPEAKER_01:We haven't figured it out yet, apparently.
SPEAKER_03:No. Well, I keep saying silly things that get us off track. But um, thanks for joining us today, you guys. Next time we're gonna do, we're gonna look at another core conviction when it comes to multiplying disciples who live on mission in the world. And it's this God cares about the who, not just the do. So we'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_07:Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspoint WI.com. If you have any questions, comments, or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast.
