Praxis

God's Kingdom Looks Like Jesus' Ministry

• Crosspoint Community Church

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The kingdom of God was the centerpiece of Jesus' teaching, but what exactly does this kingdom look like? Far more than a distant heavenly realm we'll experience after death, God's kingdom is a present reality that Jesus embodied through his revolutionary ministry. When we understand that "God's kingdom looks like Jesus' ministry," we gain a powerful lens for discipleship today.

Jesus didn't just announce God's kingdom theoretically—he demonstrated it tangibly. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, forgave sins, welcomed outcasts, and consistently challenged systems of oppression. These weren't merely nice religious acts; they were disruptive to the social, economic, and political structures of his day. They revealed an alternative kingdom that upended hierarchies and offered liberation to the marginalized.

This paradigm challenges our tendency to spiritualize Jesus' message while ignoring its real-world implications. It also confronts our modern habit of filtering Jesus through our political preferences rather than allowing his life and teaching to shape our politics. God's kingdom is political—in that it addresses power structures and systems of injustice—but it's not partisan. It doesn't fit neatly into our contemporary political categories.

As disciples today, we're called to continue embodying this kingdom through both individual transformation and community action. Rather than outsourcing kingdom work to political parties or getting entangled in partisan debates, we can unite around Jesus' vision by becoming students of his way, creating spaces for mature dialogue across differences, and actively participating in kingdom work through our local communities.

What might happen if we truly let Jesus' ministry—not our political ideologies or cultural preferences—define what God's kingdom looks like? Join us as we explore this revolutionary conviction that shaped Jesus' life and can transform ours as well.

Mac:

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. We're in a series focused on our mental models for missional discipleship. This is a framework for living out our faith as disciples of Jesus in everyday life. Whether we're aware of it or not, we all have mental models, deep convictions and assumptions that shape how we see and take action in the world.

Mac:

Mental models are kind of like prescription lenses While often invisible when wearing them, they consistently shape the way we think, feel and act. So what were the mental models Jesus lived by? What convictions shaped how Jesus saw people, responded to needs, formed disciples and joined God's mission in the world? That's what this series is all about. Each week, we are unpacking a key conviction that shaped Jesus' way of life. We're exploring how it can shape ours too, as we seek to be a community of disciples living on mission in the way of Jesus. Today, we're going to look at a fourth core conviction, and it's simply this God's kingdom looks like Jesus' ministry. Let's get into it.

Josiah:

Welcome everybody. My name is Josiah and I am Mac.

Katie:

I'm Katie.

Josiah:

It's great to be here back in the room with you guys. Depending on when you're listening to this, this is back to school week for most of us, and I was making observations of my kids and it made me think of a question I want to know from both of you, my girls especially. I have three middle school girls now.

Katie:

Oh boy.

Josiah:

So lots of energy given to outfits, especially the first day of school outfit, and so it made me think, you know, it made me reflect. I just wonder how much I cared about it, like what I wore to the first day of school, and I realized, like you know, I really did, like it mattered a lot to me. I'm wondering if you guys have any memories of like a back to school outfit that you were really excited about to wear to your first day of school. Maybe it's embarrassing, maybe it's not, I don't know.

Katie:

I definitely remember back to school shopping and I know that when I was back to school shopping I would always pick out like one special outfit and then I think I would wear that on the first day. The only thing I remember is a pair of white Fila's. Do you guys remember Fila's?

Mac:

Not really the shoe brand Do you remember Fila?

Katie:

Yeah yeah, we had a pair of white Fila's, I don't know, maybe fifth sixth grade somewhere in there, and I was super excited to wear them. I don't know, maybe fifth sixth grade somewhere in there, and I was super excited to wear them.

Mac:

I went to a private school a Catholic school for Uniforms, yeah. So I had uniforms for quite a while and then when I made the jump to public school, then I got to pick what I wore, which I thought was really cool, I bet. But I only really remember one year, josiah, where I remember like doing preschool shopping and then figuring out what I was going to wear the first day or carrying it, but like I wanted to wear what we just bought, and that was in going into ninth grade and it was a really weird year for me because we lived in atlanta for seventh and eighth grade. I lived in atlanta, georgia, and going into ninth grade my dad told me we're moving back to Minnesota and I was really pumped but I didn't have time to move and play hockey without moving there right away. So I ended up living with my best friend, ben and his family for like three or four months, and so that necessitated some like shopping beforehand to kind of get me ready and then send me away.

Mac:

And I remember the styles are coming back. They're kind of like a little baggier shorts, like my son, Tig, is wearing baggy shorts again. It was like you. Look the way I looked in ninth grade. You know what I mean.

Mac:

Oh, that is true Full circle.

Katie:

Full circle. That is true, it's full circle.

Mac:

Full circle. That is true, Full circle. But I do remember, just like you were saying, Katie, shopping for new stuff and then once you had it, being like, well, this is what I want to wear the first day because I'm excited about it.

Katie:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My parents took Hudson, my four-year-old, shopping last weekend for a back-to-school outfit and he came home with a stuffed minion. He didn't care about the clothes, apparently, so he's got his stuffy and there we go, we'll do brand hand-me-downs. What about you, Josiah? That's funny.

Josiah:

No, I remember there was one year that I had a pair of. I got a pair of pants and I think they were more expensive than my mom wanted to buy, so I got less clothes that year.

Mac:

But you got the pants.

Josiah:

I did. They were brown corduroy boot cut pants and I'm pretty sure they'd be cool today.

Katie:

Yeah, you know what? I'm pretty sure the boot cut.

Josiah:

They kind of flared at the bottom and I thought they were awesome.

Mac:

It's unfortunate, you probably still don't have them.

Josiah:

Yeah, you know, I don't know if I'd fit in them anymore.

Katie:

They weren't as wide as like JNCOs.

Josiah:

No, they were just. They were like slim at the top, so they were like they were more slim at the top and then at the bottom they flared out more. That might've been the year I saved up some of my money and got some Doc Martens.

Katie:

Yep, those were big hits.

Josiah:

That was cool and you never tied them. I don't know Like you never tied your boots when you wore them. No, you wore them. I don't know like. The more like it looked like you didn't care, the better.

Katie:

Until you trip and fall flat on your face.

Josiah:

Yeah, I just kind of leave them untucked and grow out your hair and leave it long yeah.

Katie:

That's funny.

Mac:

Some fun days. Well, I mean speaking of Doc Martens, Fila's and bell-bottom jeans. You didn't say bell-bottoms. Yeah, flare, Flare. They weren't quite there, they weren't quite the bell-bottoms. Flare-y jeans baggy shorts, all things 90s, all things 90s.

Katie:

I can picture the boy band styles Hanson. Yeah, speaking of all that, we are in a newer series right now, focused on our mental model for missional discipleship. So what we mean by that is what?

Mac:

a mouthful.

Katie:

Th at is a mouthful no-transcript, I know it's a little bit like Dr Seuss there. Mental models for missional discipleship, a framework for living out our faith as disciples of Jesus in everyday life. So in each episode we're exploring some of our core convictions or truths that anchor us and guide us as we go about being a community of disciples who live on mission in the way of Jesus. What's more is that we believe that these were the core convictions that guided Jesus. These were the mental models Jesus used when making and multiplying disciples to join God's mission in the world. So we've covered a few of them so far. We talked about how God's presence precedes our participation, how God bends or stoops to meet us in reality. Last time we talked about how God is like Jesus, and today we're gonna unpack a fourth conviction that is central to missional discipleship, and it's this God's kingdom looks like Jesus's ministry. God's kingdom looks like Jesus's ministry.

Mac:

Yeah, I do think it's worth repeating because I have to keep telling myself this that these are lenses Jesus lived by. These aren't just like our lenses. We're trying to put these lenses on because these are lenses that Jesus wore and that guided his way of seeing, being and acting in the world. And it does seem very clear to me that Jesus carried this conviction that his life, ministry and teachings very much embodied God's kingdom. And so, yes, god's kingdom looks like Jesus, jesus's ministry, jesus doing life right. So maybe we should start by like unpacking some of the key words. I was thinking, hey, maybe we should start with just talking about what we mean by God's kingdom. What does that mean, you know?

Katie:

Yeah.

Mac:

So you know we try to be conversational on this, but I didn't know what else to do but like, do a little teaching, is that all right? Yeah?

Mac:

Like some teaching on this phrase Sounds great. Okay, what does God's kingdom? Quote? Unquote God's kingdom mean. The most common definition is that it refers to the in-breaking reign of God. Okay, that's kind of like common vernacular. You'll hear, if you're reading commentaries or theologians, that God's kingdom refers to the in-breaking reign of God. God's reign breaking in. One of the most memorable definitions that I've heard came from a professor of mine in college, greg Boyd. He said it's the dome in which God is king, it's the king's dome kingdom king's dome.

Mac:

It's the dome in which God is king.

Katie:

I like that.

Mac:

I do too. It's easier to remember right, but just think about God's rule, god's reign breaking into our reality, breaking into earth, and so heaven is sort of taking shape here and now. There are a couple really important things to know about God's kingdom, though, and one is that the announcement of God's kingdom was not necessarily new. With Jesus it's a rival, and that it was happening in and through Jesus is, but this whole idea of God's kingship and God's kingdom really goes all the way back to the Old Testament. So I want to unpack that just for a moment, and I want to kind of just plant a seed that this wasn't just a quote unquote spiritual announcement, but actually a deeply political one, like it had political implications in its original context throughout the Old Testament and certainly in Jesus's day, and I wanna plant a seed that, as we get further into this podcast, it will also have political implications for us, make sense.

Mac:

It does that feels like Is that raising your temperature?

Katie:

Yeah, no, not temperature. It just feels like something that will raise curiosity, maybe if we were listening to this going huh, I wonder what he means by that.

Mac:

Yeah, I think so, and I'm aware that that word political automatically kind of triggers people. I was actually reading a book on emotional intelligence. I'm reading a book right now and it talked about how you should never talk about politics.

Katie:

Interesting.

Mac:

And here's why I'm going to give you this quote. I wrote it down last night People's political beliefs are too closely tied to their identities to be discussed without incident. Disagreeing with someone else's view can quickly alter their otherwise strong perception of you. Political opinions are so deeply ingrained in people that challenging their views is more likely to get you judged than to change their minds. Travis Dr, travis, bradbury, and so I just want to maybe comment on that for a moment before we get into theology of stuff.

Mac:

Like he says, people's beliefs are closely tied to their identities. Did you notice that? And in other words, I want to say maybe we've made an idol of our politics such that it's become an identity marker for us and actually, as followers of Jesus, our identity isn't in our political affiliation, it's to be in Christ, like over and over and over. There's this phrase in the New Testament in Christ, in Christ, in Christ. Our identity is first and foremost in Christ. And to the degree you put your identity in anything else, whether it's your job or career, whether it's your role as a parent, how much money or possessions you have or your political party, that's actually idolatry, like you're putting something in the place where Jesus ultimately belongs. So I want to say, hey, time out for a second. If we put politics in an appropriate box, meaning it's not our identity, then that all of a sudden should create some non-reactionary space where we can talk about it without getting too emotionally charged.

Katie:

Right, do you guys follow it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perhaps one of the end goals of becoming more emotionally mature is that you can hold tension in conversation and talk about things that matter a lot. That's right.

Mac:

Yeah, that's right. And to the degree that, like, my identity is fused with what I think, or having to be right or whatever, then I quickly become like unraveled when someone disagrees with me. And I want to just put our listeners at ease right up front. I am not a politician, I'm not a political pundit. I have no, I have no desire to change where you're at politically right now. Like that is not the goal. But I am trying to create space so that we can see something in scripture that's there and then we can wrestle with the implications later on.

Katie:

You know what I mean.

Mac:

Let's start with scripture.

Katie:

Yeah.

Mac:

Okay, let's do it. So let's dive in a little bit In the Old Testament. This phrase actually doesn't occur there, but it's a primary conviction that gets like sort of clarified in Second Temple Judaism. And there's this Hebrew phrase, malkut Shamaim, and Malkut means kingdom, shamaim means of heaven, and so the phrase literally means kingdom of heaven. Okay, and in the Old Testament it was actually Melchut Yahweh, which is the kingdom of Yahweh or the kingdom of the Lord. But remember, jewish people don't pronounce the name Yahweh out of respect and reverence. So that's why during the Second temple Judaism phase, kind of between the Old Testament and the New Testament, that time period, that 400-year gap, this phrase melchut shamayim replaces sort of the melchut Yahweh.

Katie:

Sure, because they can't say Yahweh.

Mac:

Right, exactly. And you'll notice that when Jesus shows up on the scene in Matthew's gospel, matthew is writing to Jewish readers. That's why in Mark and Luke they use the phrase kingdom of God, because they're writing to Gentiles, so it's okay to use that phrase. But Matthew is writing to Jewish listeners, so he's not gonna use the word God, he's gonna use the word heavens instead. That's why, when Jesus shows up in Mark and Luke, it's like Jesus is announcing the kingdom of God, but in Matthew he's saying the kingdom of heaven.

Katie:

Makes sense. I never knew that.

Mac:

And it connects back to this primary conviction of the kingdom of heaven, or kingdom of Yahweh, that goes throughout the Old Testament. Now, this phrase and this conviction points to the sole sovereignty of God. It's this idea that God alone has the right to rule and reign, deep conviction for Jewish people in the Old Testament, and it's sort of a fundamental tenet of Jewish faith, and it caused them to stand out. Okay, throughout the Old Testament, this is like the first commandment you shall have no other gods before me, right, you're to be faithful to me alone. We see it show up in the Shema where it says hear, o Israel, the Lord, your God, the Lord is one. It's also a big theme through first and second Chronicles, but this whole idea is that, like, god alone has the right to rule and reign, and this was radical because, for Israelites, they're living in a polytheistic culture where there's not one God with a capital G, but many gods with a lowercase g, and so, in saying Melchut, shamaim, they're saying no, there aren't many gods, there's one God, and that God alone gets my full allegiance and loyalty. You see how radical that is in that cultural day and age. In addition to that, though, there's also a, not just in the spiritual realm, god versus gods with a lowercase g.

Mac:

There's also sort of political implications regarding human leaders. In Genesis 1 and 2, there was no hierarchy in terms of domination. Human beings were created underneath God to be equal with one another and serve in mutual submission and love, and so baked into this conviction that God alone gets to rule and reign also means that other human beings don't get to pretend to be God and rule over me, which, of course, is why, throughout the Old Testament, israel wasn't supposed to have a king. Why? Because God alone was their king, yeah, and now all of a sudden, they make this request, like we want to be, like other nations, and Samuel and God see this as a horrible thing and ends up doing horrible things. Because, look, god alone is to be your God. You're not to be submitting to other earthly authorities in that way and letting them rule over you and dominate you. So I know this is a little heady or sort of educational, but here's the big takeaway is this phrase Melchut Shamaim carried an implication that loyalty alone belongs to Yahweh.

Mac:

Right, yahweh alone is king, so you're to give him your full allegiance and loyalty and you're to give it to nobody else, no other lowercase g God and no other human being. But it also carried a political implication. By refusing to do that, it meant you were refusing to bend your knee to like other people who claim to be able to do that right. So, for instance, this drove the Maccabean revolt. Where we get the Hanukkah. You had this Greek king, antiochus IV, who came in like conquered Israel and was demanding that they, like sacrifice pigs on the altar in the temple, and the Maccabean revolt started because they refused to do that. Like we will not bend to you or to any other God, we're not gonna do that.

Mac:

Our allegiance and loyalty is to Yahweh alone, to our King, and so anytime someone is sort of imposing something else, that would conflict, create conflict with that loyalty or allegiance. It creates rub, it creates tension. You guys see what I'm saying, yeah, and this entire thing sets the backdrop for Jesus's arrival and announcement that, lo and behold, the kingdom of God Melchizedek is arriving in and through me. When Jesus says that, he's saying I deserve all your loyalty and allegiance, the loyalty and allegiance that you give to Yahweh. I'm now demanding from you. I'm the true king, and that means all other kings. This is where it gets political. All other claims to kingship are here to reject. So you've got King Herod sitting on the throne, a faux Jewish leader, and you've got Caesar, who's claiming to be king of the world, and Jesus is going. Nope, nope, not them. You're not to be submitting to them, you're to submit to me.

Katie:

Does this make sense? And that's the kingdom, that's God's kingdom. Yes, yeah, it's so interesting because you know when you say what do we mean by God's kingdom. I think if I would have been asked that question back in maybe like high school or college, I probably would have said like well, God's kingdom is heaven, Like it's a place we go when we die, and that's certainly part of it. But I hear you saying it's so much more than that. It's all that came with God's reign breaking in through Jesus and it's all that comes within God's dome.

Mac:

Yes, and actually the biblical portrait of heaven is not some other place we go to after we die, like in a distant world or something like that. The biblical portrait of heaven is heaven fully enveloping earth in such a way where all that is here right now is totally transformed by God's loving presence, and God's rule and God's reign is saturating every crack and crevice where God's will is being perfectly done.

Katie:

Yeah, so where we see little glimpses of that now, like in Jesus and in the work that God is doing in the world. Now the new heavens and new earth will be the full culmination of that.

Mac:

That's right. And so here's the question If God's kingdom is arriving in Jesus, okay, and Jesus believes that God's kingdom looks like his ministry In other words, he's not only revealing what God is like, but what God's kingdom looks like his ministry in other words, he's not only revealing what God is like, but what God's kingdom looks like then, as we partner with God to join his kingdom come, we have to get really clear on what that kingdom looks like. What does God's kingdom look like? Last episode, we talked about how God is like Jesus. So we said what is God like? Well, god is like Jesus. Now we're going one step further and going what does God's kingdom look like? Well, it actually looks like Jesus's ministry. So now we have to create space to go. So what is this kingdom look like? What is the kingdom that Jesus pronounced and described, and what is the kingdom that Jesus embodied?

Josiah:

Yeah.

Josiah:

Yeah this is a really important paradigm shift, but a difficult one, I think we can name that. The difficulty comes from like it's sometimes easier to view God's kingdom as something ethereal that sits up in the clouds and one day Jesus is going to return and make everything right. Yes, although that is partially true, it's difficult to live into that kingdom when you can't see it and touch it and you don't have something so tangible. Now, what I've learned over the years is that it's much more tangible than I think. I was like taught to believe that God's kingdom really is tangible and the way that Jesus calls us to live our lives is actually tangibly participating in the work of his kingdom, breaking into spaces in which it's not right now.

Mac:

I love that. Let's assume for a moment that it does feel really ethereal and abstract and generalized, maybe, like it would have, for I don't know a first century Jew and imagine Jesus showing up and saying guess what? I'm gonna give you a foretaste of the kingdom right now. I'm gonna show you what God's kingdom looks like through my life, my teachings and my ministry. And yes, one day in the future it will be fully completed. But you get a tangible taste of it right now. If we were to read the gospels through that lens going, jesus is revealing to us what God's rule and reign looks like. What kind of things would we say? What kind of conclusions would we draw? How would we describe God's kingdom? Does that make sense?

Katie:

Yeah, I love that you mentioned you referenced the verse Mark 1, 15, where Jesus said the time has come, the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the good news. So again, it just shows that Jesus is not only announcing the kingdom, he is the kingdom he's like. If you want to look at the kingdom, look at me. And one of the passages that comes to mind for me is Luke 4, where Jesus says the Spirit of the Lord is on me. He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. So if we want to ask the question, what is God's kingdom about? And we say well, his kingdom is about Jesus's ministry.

Katie:

I think that's where we start. Like, what does he say? He's about right this was one of the key passages where he's announcing here's what I came to do Heal the sick, feed the poor, set the captives free. So he announces this and then he actually does these things as he continues on in his ministry. Through his healing, he demonstrates that he cares for those who are vulnerable. Through feeding the poor. He shows that he cares about economic matters by feeding captives.

Katie:

He confronts evil powers and systems that are oppressing people. By associating with people of all classes, all races, all ethnicities, he shows us this is what God's kingdom looks like, and so I think you're right. I think if we look closely, we'll see that Jesus embodies an entirely different way of being in the world and of relating to, like the powers and structures that exist. I see all over the gospels where he takes like social hierarchies and flips them upside down. He challenges institutions and structures and power dynamics in a way that I think would have been really disorienting to those living around him at the time, and I do think this demonstrates for us what God's kingdom is about, right? So if we're asking the question, what does God's kingdom look like? Well, let's just look at what Jesus did, what he said, how he related to people as individuals, but also people sort of as a collective, and the institutional structures around him.

Mac:

Yeah, let me take a stab at summarizing what I heard you say, as our listeners are leaning in and perhaps hearing this for the first time, or maybe this is new to them. I hear you saying that the kingdom of God was the centerpiece of Jesus's ministry, and all commentators that I can tell agree on that. That, like if you had to boil Jesus's teachings into one statement, the thesis. What was Jesus's thesis? It's what you quoted from Mark the kingdom of God is here, repent and believe the good news right, and Jesus is the kingdom blueprint. So what did Jesus teach and what did he embody? That gives us indicators of what God's kingdom looks like. We'll start where Jesus starts His inaugural speech. I'm kicking off my ministry. Was that Luke 4 passage right? And then Jesus goes on to embody the very thing he just got done, proclaiming for the rest of his life.

Katie:

Yeah, unlike a political stunt speech where they make a bunch of promises and then don't do it. This is like he actually does the things he says he's going to do.

Mac:

And so what does God's kingdom look like when it arrives? Well, it's care for the vulnerable, right, healing the sick. It's economic justice, feeding the poor. It's overthrowing evil powers and systems, fighting oppression and exploitation. That's what it means to free the captives. Right, and you alluded to this, but maybe it'd be fun to drill down a little bit, because I named earlier that all of these moves, like we have to understand God's kingdom arrival, that it has political implications, and I want to maybe help our listeners see that these aren't just like spiritual things. The way some people see Jesus is just like a spiritual teacher. Every one of these things that Jesus is teaching and embodying had radical political implications in his day and age that actually got him in trouble. Jesus didn't get crucified because he was just a good teacher and had some nice thoughts. He got crucified because he was politically disruptive to both Rome and to the Jewish religious establishment. So let me just give you oh, you were going to say something.

Katie:

I was going to say are you saying that the Gospels aren't just like little cute phrases that I'm supposed to write on a postcard and carry around for my personal encouragement throughout the day?

Mac:

Oh, you're going to get me off on a tangent. Can I give you an example? Yes, jesus announces that the kingdom of God in Luke 4 involves feeding the poor, and then in the gospels we actually see him doing that right. Well, one example is when he feeds the 5,000. There's another instance where he feeds the crowd involving 4,000 people. And it's not just a cool story of Jesus taking a little kid's lunch sack and multiplying loaves and fishes to reveal God's abundance. It is that, but it's also more than that, and we need to be able to see this in light of the first century context.

Mac:

Food scarcity and inequitable distribution was widespread in the Roman empire.

Mac:

This is the social context Jesus is living in, as you have the top 5% of the population, the elites have all of the material wealth and possessions, and 95% of the population is living at or below the poverty line, in total destitution, barely scraping by, barely able to eat or to feed themselves.

Mac:

And that happened through multiple centuries of overtaxation, wrongly procuring people's land and exploiting people such that they have nothing left but, in some cases, actually have to sell themselves into a slavehood or indentured servanthood. This is the context Jesus is doing ministry in, where 95% of people are living hand to mouth, fearful and wondering where their next meal is coming from. Okay, so when you put this in context, that Jesus feeds a multitude of people using only a few fish and a couple loaves of bread, this goes beyond yes. It's a revealing that, yes, god is a God of abundance and can supply for your needs. He can take the little you have and multiply to have a kingdom impact. All of those lessons are true. Multiply to have a kingdom impact. All of those lessons are true. But it's also a deep exposure and critique of the economic systems of exploitation that led to the condition where people are hungry in the first place.

Mac:

Does that make sense. He's not just revealing something about God. He's also revealing something about the systemic injustice that leads to hunger in the first place. Jesus is feeding people because they're hungry, and so it begs the question why are people hungry? Why are people living hand to mouth? They would have known the answer to that question. It's their lived reality every day, right, and Jesus is doing something that then reveals God's kingdom. God's kingdom is one where God's abundant provision provides for all, but it also involves sharing rather than hoarding. This little kid becomes the reference point in a way that challenges the upper elites clinging to the top 5%, clinging to their stuff, in a way that makes other people go hungry. This makes sense.

Josiah:

Yeah, no, that makes sense.

Mac:

Yeah, that's just one example, you guys. There's lots of other examples where we can see the connection, the miracle or the action for what it is. But we also have to go to the second step and go what did this mean socially and what work did that do? And oftentimes it's disruptive. So, for instance, who did Jesus hang out with? In the ancient Near Eastern world, much like many Eastern cultures today, it was an honor-shame system. It's almost like a caste system, where people who had more honor and shame associated with one another, but they would never associate with someone in a class below them, right, and that was all based on your background and your education and how much wealth you had, and so on and so forth. And once you were in those categories, you're kind of locked in.

Mac:

Well, jesus shows up on the scene and he disrupts the entire thing. And how does he do that? He hangs out with people at the bottom. I mean, even at the very beginning of the gospels, what do you see Jesus doing? He's born. As I've said before, I think in our last episode, jesus is born to a common peasant Jewish couple at the bottom of society, from a no-name town, and the first people to hear the good news are the shepherds, who were sort of despicable, like again bottom of the barrel. And then this is who Jesus spends a lot of his time hanging out with sinners and tax collectors and prostitutes who didn't just have like no honor, like, or you know, a low amount of honor. They had none. And by associating with them, jesus is sort of like subtracting from his own. Okay, but it's also disruptive, because he's sending a message to those who think that if the Messiah is going to come, they should be hanging out with me.

Katie:

You know what I mean.

Mac:

Yeah, it's politically disruptive. It's disrupting the way people socialize and do life. And again, katie, to your point. It is revealing something, though, about the kingdom that God's kingdom doesn't play according to this hierarchy. It's for all people, right? It's an all-inclusive kingdom that doesn't make these types of distinctions.

Katie:

Yeah, and I hear you saying that by operating in such a counter-cultural way and not that he was just doing so for the sake of being disruptive, but he was embodying God's kingdom but by doing so, he disrupted not only secular power structures but religious ones.

Mac:

Yes, yes. When Jesus announces that the kingdom of God is at hand, there's a political weight to that announcement because he's announcing that a new reign is being established and it challenges Rome and the religious elites, authority. It challenges both Caesar and Herod. When he says blessed are the poor, blessed are those who hunger for justice, he's elevating those who are being oppressed and put down right, elevates the marginalized and he critiques the social hierarchies that are in play. When Jesus does things like forgive sins and then heals people as proof that he has the authority to forgive sins, man, he's claiming divine prerogative in that moment in a way that disrupts the so-called authority that the religious leaders have, disrupts the so-called authority that the religious leaders have right. When he says, for instance, render to Caesar what is Caesar's and God to what is God's right, he's doing something highly political in that moment, because a coin in that day and age had Caesar's image on it, which was idolatrous for a Jewish person. So he's saying give Caesar his idolatrous coin back, but you render to God what is God's. Whose image is on you, god's image is on you, so give yourself fully to God. This is a lot of work, okay. So this is I'm just gonna name this. This is a lot of work.

Mac:

I'm not a political pundit. I'm a pastor who does a lot of theological reading. I have spent a lot of time looking at the life and teachings of Jesus and then wrestling with what implications did this have in his cultural context? Like it's a lifetime of work. I'm not even. I feel like I'm just getting started.

Mac:

My concern, though, is that oftentimes we're not making these. His cultural context. Like it's a lifetime of work. I'm not even. I feel like I'm just getting started. My concern, though, is that oftentimes, we're not making these. We're not even looking for these connections. Yeah, we're not even noticing how Jesus's life, teachings and ministry are not only revealing something about God and God's kingdom, but we're not noticing how it's actually disrupting the kingdoms of the world and remaking something more beautiful. And so how in the world are we supposed to participate in God's kingdom arriving and the upheaval that that's gonna create if we don't even have eyes to see it in the first place? You get what I'm saying. We have to have eyes to see. This is the work Jesus was doing in that moment. If we're gonna join and do similar work today, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Katie:

This is the work Jesus was doing in that moment. If we're going to join and do similar work today, yeah, this was a real paradigm shift for me, probably shortly before I started working here. I think for much of my life I saw the gospel really kind of limited to what it means for my private individual life, my private spiritual life, my walk with God, my quiet time, all of that and as I began to see oh God's at work in the world and his mission started all the way back in Genesis 1, and it continues. It goes through all the Old Testament. The New Testament continues today. One of the verses that stuck out to me I ended up having it tattooed on my arm is from 2 Peter 1 where he says you're participants in the divine nature, and that's what that paradigm shift meant for me.

Katie:

It was like this light bulb moment of like oh, this is so much more than me, and my personal kind of like struggles with sin, and all of that. Yes, yes, yes to all of that. Why are you smiling?

Mac:

I'm thinking back to you getting that tattoo on your arm. It's in Greek, you guys, katie doesn't know Greek, so she asked me to like, help select, like kind of pick the text, not like the verse, but like. Which portion of the verse to have tattooed, which portion of the verse to have tattooed? And I sent it to her and I just realized how much trust you were putting me in that moment.

Katie:

Yeah, I didn't realize. I didn't double check your work until I was sitting in the chair. I didn't mess with you.

Mac:

Yeah, you didn't. Yeah, I think we, I think I confirmed it, maybe after the fact. Yeah, I think of that random, like random people who have, like I don't know, like a Chinese symbol tattooed on their I don't know the back of their neck or something, and then you're like what does that mean? And you're like courage. And then someone else like that doesn't mean courage.

Katie:

You know what's funny too. I don't know if I ever told you this, but I literally just printed out your email and handed it to the guy and it's in the font that the email was in. He didn't even ask me is this the font you want? I'm like that's the Google whatever default font.

Mac:

That must make you cringe, Josiah, as someone who's artsy and you know what I mean you took Times New Roman Greek and put it on your forum.

Katie:

It was supposed to be like two inches long and it ended up like seven or eight inches.

Josiah:

Well, maybe it's just ironic, and so then it's like you did it on purpose. You just kind of have to own it. You know that it was like a stock font.

Katie:

It's kind of just my MO. It's kind of just how I operate through life.

Josiah:

Oh sure, just put it on there, move on. Just put it on there and move on.

Katie:

Yeah, yeah, sounds good, but anyways, that being said, like this whole thing, this was a big light bulb moment for me. I mean I'm excited to flesh it out.

Mac:

I would submit that it was a big light bulb moment for the disciples too.

Mac:

I mean, I just got done kind of going on a rant about how we have to be able to see Jesus, what he was saying and doing and revealing about God's kingdom, if we're gonna like be a foretaste of God's kingdom and that also includes seeing or being aware of how it's disruptive to our present environments Well, my goodness, it seems like when you read the book of Acts this is a major theme that the early church and the apostles are actually continuing the disruption that Jesus started by revealing the kingdom of God in honestly, the exact same ways that Jesus started by revealing the kingdom of God in honestly, the exact same ways that Jesus did.

Mac:

One book that really helped me bring this to life was World Upside Down by a scholar named Kevin Rowe, and then also we preach through the book of Acts, and William James Jennings helped me see this a lot. But when you look at the book of Acts, it's like the disciples are just continuing to do and say the same things. Jesus is embodying the kingdom and it has a similar disrupting effect. You know what I mean.

Josiah:

Yeah, yeah, I think that seeing what the early disciples did in response to Jesus sort of further solidifies what it looks like for us. So Jesus sort of further solidifies what it looks like for us Because Jesus wasn't just demonstrating something on his own, he was doing so by starting sort of like a revolution of other people doing it as well. And I think that's important to recognize because I guess I have had conversations with people when trying to share some of these insights, like how inspiring it is to know that participating in God's work here and now actually makes a difference. It's not like we're not dividing sacred and secular here. We're actually like, hey, participating and following the commands of Jesus is actually our participation in the kingdom of God and it breaking in.

Josiah:

I remember having some of these conversations and sometimes putting Jesus up on this pedestal of like, hey, this is how we're designed to live, how he lived his life and how he taught his disciples to live. It can look like this lofty goal, like, well, we will never be as perfect as Jesus and Jesus did all these things. That doesn't mean we're doing all of the exact same things. Jesus did those things, but now we do something. We do other things because we're not Jesus, and you know, I think that my response to that is well, let's just look at what the early disciples did then.

Josiah:

Because Jesus, in multiple spaces, gave the disciples authority to proclaim and demonstrate the kingdom in the exact same way he did. In Luke, chapter 9, he commissions the 12s to go, heal the sick and proclaim the kingdom of God. In Luke, chapter nine, he commissions the 12s to go heal the sick and proclaim the kingdom of God. John, chapter 14,. Whoever believes in me will do the works I've been doing, and even greater ones. So he's commissioning the early disciples that the people that are following him, to go and do likewise to do the same things he is doing Right.

Josiah:

And then in the book of Acts he talked about, there's countless stories of the apostles demonstrating and proclaiming the kingdom of God, and most of which caused a lot of disruption to the powers around them. So the very things Jesus was doing to demonstrate the kingdom the disciples are now doing.

Mac:

Yeah, can I fill some of that out from Acts? Yeah, so just as Jesus cared for the sick and healed people and it got him in trouble, right the disciples also end up caring for the marginalized and the sick. So, for instance, peter and John heal a lame man at the temple gate. Next thing you know, they're being brought in before the Sanhedrin Yep. Remember, jesus freed and liberated people. In Acts 16, paul casts out a spirit of divination from a slave girl who's being exploited, and that liberation she was being used for profit challenges the economic system in that location and people go nuts. It creates all sorts of upheaval in that environment. You see the early church sharing resources right, when anybody had a need, people freely sold some of their stuff to make sure nobody was lacking right, that's in an environment where hoarding is the norm. Okay, they're associating with outcasts Again. Remember, a big theme in Acts is Peter learning that God's kingdom is welcome to Gentiles as well. The whole story of Cornelius is told twice just to double click on that. Well, man, breaking this Jew-Gentile divide was like a bold move and created all sorts of friction wherever they went.

Mac:

I was thinking back to a point that William James Jennings helped me see, this is why you got to read. People are different from you. He pointed out that there's a major theme in Acts where they're undoing the prison system. So, for instance, peter, remember, an angel sets Peter free while the church is praying for him and then he knocks on the door and they like shut the door in his face or whatever, but it's like he's liberated from prison. And then same thing happens with Paul and the Philippian jailer. Like they're singing songs and they're praising, there's this earthquake and they're set free. There's also this undercurrent of like wrongful imprisonment being undone by the kingdom of God. So you guys see what I'm saying. If you read through the book of Acts with this lens going, how are they doing the things that Jesus did healing the sick, freeing oppressed people and so on you'll see they're continuing the very thing that Jesus did and in similar ways that Jesus got in trouble or disrupted things, they're doing the same thing.

Josiah:

Right.

Mac:

Yeah.

Josiah:

This makes me think of Jesus or us. Proclaiming good news to the poor or to the oppressed can sound like bad news to someone who has exploited. Yes. Yes, it's like if I have owned a part of an earthly kingdom, or let's just call it like a lower G God, if I have invested in part of that. The announcement of the kingdom of God sounds like a threat to that. But to the oppressed and to the poor and to the needy and to people who have been downtrodden and outcast, the announcement of the kingdom is good news. So it makes me think of when Jesus challenged the people who were listening to him and he said woe to you when everyone speaks well of you.

Josiah:

I think that can get misapplied. Sometimes it can give people excuses to be jerks, which I've heard it used before. Oh yeah, for sure.

Katie:

Someone actually used that verse.

Josiah:

Oh yeah, like essentially, like well, someone's always going to be mad at me, you know.

Mac:

Yeah, you're not you're not speaking well of me, and that's a good thing, because essentially like if people are mad at me, it means I'm doing the right thing.

Josiah:

But I think of that in this case, that if the way you are participating in God's kingdom isn't disruptive to some, you may be missing part of the point, because what I hear you saying, mac and Katie, with some of this theological analysis, is that the announcement of the kingdom is inherently threatening to the kingdoms of this world. Yes, because the king and the kingdoms of this world, no matter how perfect they may try to be, uh, are inherently domineering and exploiting of other people.

Mac:

Yes.

Josiah:

And the kingdom of heaven is a pronouncement in which everybody is equal and no one gets to lord it over another.

Mac:

Yes, and we shouldn't be surprised by that. You know Paul talks about how we shouldn't be ignorant of Satan's schemes. Right, we should have our eyes open and in scripture, sin isn't just wrongdoing, it's also a principality and power that's at work in the world that influences entire governments, and you know what I mean. Like worldly systems, the structures and systems that exist are not like immune to evil forces being at work within them. So, as followers of Jesus, this should be like. When it comes to spiritual warfare, I'm not so much interested all the time in like, oh, is there a demon behind that? Bush, as much as like you, also need to be able to see that this is at work in structural ways through bigger entities that influence all different kinds of areas of life.

Josiah:

Yeah, when people are, when there's large groups of people that are oppressed all over the world, there's probably spiritual forces behind it, or wars taking place, yeah, or divisions, or like.

Mac:

We've got to develop eyes to see, yes, how this takes place, not just in like temptation, individual temptation, but also like ongoing conflicts between groups of people.

Josiah:

Yeah, yeah. And the kingdom of God is like, is contrary to that and threatening to it.

Mac:

As is evidenced by tearing down the wall between Jew and Greek slave, and free male and female, for all are one in Christ Jesus.

Josiah:

I was going to say another thing in regards to how the disciples in the early church operated in the ways of Jesus. They saw themselves as citizens of heaven first and foremost. The disciples in the early church operated in the ways of Jesus. Um, they also like they. They saw themselves as citizens of heaven, uh, first and foremost, um, not, um, not necessarily just the Israel, as as Israelites. And they had to untangle some of that.

Josiah:

If you remember, in Acts, chapter one, um, the disciples ask Lord will you, at this time, restore the kingdom, the kingdom to Israel? And Jesus' response is to say well, you don't know the day or the hour, but you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all of Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth. So Jesus is challenging this notion that Israel is going to become like, this nationalistic pride that Israel is going to rule. He's saying no, my kingdom goes far beyond just Israel. Right, he challenged their nationalistic loyalty by broadening the scope of what the kingdom of God is and who it all includes. And they had to pledge their allegiance to a king and kingdom that includes every tribe, tongue and nation. And, as you were saying before, mac, that was probably a very big paradigm shift for them, and it also includes one for us too.

Mac:

My goodness, yeah, I mean when we talk about Jesus embodying the kingdom of God and the kingdom's arrival. It wasn't just disruptive and mind bending, for instance, for the people at the top exploiting others. It also took a long time for the disciples to capture the beauty and the full implications of the kingdom of God that they're going to participate in. I mean, this is the book of Acts. Jesus has died and risen again, and they're still asking the wrong question. They're still thinking oh, you're going to put yourself on the throne and create an awesome Israel that rules over all the other nations. That's what's happening in Acts 1. And Jesus is like no, you still don't get it.

Josiah:

Well, it's okay. It's interesting when I was looking up these passages. In Acts, there's a verse where it says that after Jesus was up here to them, after he was raised from the dead, he spent how long was it with them Was it 40 days Explaining the kingdom of God to them. So he sat there with them for over a month Still explaining it. Explaining it, being like this is what's going on and still, after all of that, they're like got it. So when are you gonna restore the kingdom of Israel? They're so dense.

Mac:

And there's grace in that, because it means like we may even still not fully understand the weight and implications of God's kingdom arriving. Yeah, and God is gracious and continues to instruct us, and that's no excuse for, like the obvious teachings of scripture, to begin to wrap our minds around what God's kingdom looks like so that we can faithfully join it here and now. So hear this the kingdom of God is a kingdom without borders. So hear this the kingdom of God is a kingdom without borders, without nationalistic borders. Okay, the kingdom of God is not centered on one nation with borders and territory to defend. The kingdom of God is about all people, all people. It's a kingdom without geographical borders and territory to defend. It's an all-inclusive kingdom centered on King Jesus. That is for every tribe, tongue and nation. There's Christians in Uganda, there's Christians in Germany, there's Christians in China, there's Christians in most nations, and the kingdom of God is available to every single person, no matter what nation that they belong to, and it doesn't center on the nation they live in.

Mac:

As you said, josiah, scripture in the New Testament makes it clear, for instance in 2 Corinthians, that we are Christ's ambassadors. We belong first and foremost to Christ and, like an ambassador is sent to a different country to represent their nation. We're ambassadors of the kingdom of God. We're sent here and now to represent God's kingdom rule. Scripture says that, look, we're not to get entangled in civilian affairs, but rather we're to stay connected to our commanding officer. That's 2 Timothy 2.4. So think about this. Imagine you're like a commanding. You're sent by a commanding officer to be in some other territory. The image Paul is giving is like you don't go to that other country and then get so wound up in their affairs that you forget your commanding officer back home. And yet my concern, if I'm honest as a pastor not a political opponent, but as a pastor leading people, especially in the last 10 years with all that's happened it seems like a lot of people are super entangled in civilian affairs and I've actually forgot their commanding officer and the kingdom that they're called to represent.

Katie:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes me think of like when you're a US ambassador, to say Spain, you work at the embassy and you hold the American flag up. Yes, it's like you move to Spain and you take the American flag down and you start acting like someone who lives in Spain and is from there.

Mac:

Yes, and I see that happening with Christians is like, okay, you're supposed to be an ambassador for Christ, represent Jesus and be joining God's kingdom in the world. And maybe you live in America, or maybe you live in Australia, I don't know, but it's like you're so entangled and entrenched in your American identity that you've forgotten that you're first and foremost a Jesus follower. And actually being a Jesus follower will conflict with many American values. Yes, in the same way that being a Jesus follower in ancient Israel as a first disciple conflicted with what it meant to be a good citizen in that day and age.

Josiah:

And you could take it a step further to say that if your identity as a Christ follower does not sit somewhat, in some areas, at odds with the culture or the political climate around you, I think that might be an indicator that we've done some watering down of what it looks like to, first and foremost, be an ambassador for the kingdom of God.

Mac:

Yeah, yeah. And again kind of going back to that quote I had last night with that EQ book, I just think it's an indicator that we've forgotten our status as Christ ambassadors, as exiles and sojourners in a foreign land, that we have a commanding officer. When we get so reactionary about any political belief or identity marker, we get all ramped up because of that. That's just an indicator that our identity is in the wrong place, that we're putting too much weight in American politics versus our citizenship in the kingdom of God.

Josiah:

Yeah, and maybe we can pause. Pause, if you're listening today, maybe just be honest with yourself. Are you finding yourself feeling reactive at some of the statements? Like does does that do some of these statements sound threatening to your own political ideologies and you start your? Maybe you're starting to get nervous of like, okay, what is Mac trying to imply here? I think that would just be good to do a little emotional check-in. If you're listening to this, Be like, am I feeling really tense and reactive and nervous about what maybe Mac is going to say about this? I think that'd be a good little check-in.

Mac:

Yeah, let's just untangle ourselves a little bit. Let's stay tethered to Jesus and untangle ourselves from our current political situation, because here's the reality and I'm just going to submit this. Try this on. You don't have to agree with me, but you can try it on.

Mac:

I want to submit that the kingdom of God is political. What I mean by that is like Jesus's life, teachings and ministry had political implications in his day and age. I think that's obvious. This is what he got killed for. Okay, he caused disruption.

Mac:

But I also wanna submit that Jesus and the kingdom of God is not partisan in terms of 2025 American politics that make sense, what I'm getting at. It's political, but it's not partisan in the sense that we can take all that is American politics in 2025 and Jesus is gonna fit neatly into those categories. That's sort of imposing something over Jesus that is gonna distort who Jesus is. In other words, jesus and the kingdom of God is political, but it's not going to be partisan, at least in a consistent way. Another way to say this is Jesus isn't a Republican or a Democrat, he's not red or blue and he's not purple purple for crying out loud, because sometimes I encounter people who see the problem with the right, like they kind of have some distaste towards the right and the left, and so they kind of like put themselves on this like higher playing field where they're like, well, I'm not right or left, I can see both sides, kind of a thing. You know what I mean. And great to the degree you can sort of, like, um, interact with different people. Wonderful, that's a great capacity to have.

Mac:

But Jesus also wasn't like a moderate today. Okay, um, he didn't just blend both such that he became purple, a perfect fusion of red and blue. Um, jesus, quite frankly, actually took sides. This is what got him in trouble in his day and age, when there's issues of justice and exploitation, you don't take the oppressor and the oppressed and sit them down at a table and go. Well, let's look at both sides of this. Jesus took sides. When Simon is snickering because a woman is anointing his feet with oil, he didn't go. Hey, young woman, what do you see from Simon's point of view? Simon, what do you see? He didn't mediate that way. He sided with the woman anointing his feet in a way that exposed Simon's heart. Yeah, get what I'm saying. So this whole Jesus was always moderate and never took sides. Also doesn't do justice to what we see happening in the gospels.

Katie:

It makes me think of this time. In college, a friend of mine was reading a book that asked the question would Jesus be a Democrat or a Republican? And I was a staunch Republican, so I thought, well, of course he'd be a Republican. No, but I think just even asking that question just makes Jesus so small. Yes, like what I hear you saying is Jesus wasn't operating on the spectrum of 2025 American politics.

Mac:

And.

Katie:

I think that's exactly right. He's so much bigger than that, then we try to put him on this continuum. Yeah, we put him on a box and try to fit him into this continuum. Did he say and do things that have implications for our modern day politics? Absolutely yes, but we can't put them into a box and then try to pin down exactly where he would land.

Mac:

We can't start with a contemporary American politics and then read those over Jesus without distorting Jesus. And that's what's happening, you guys. I know people on both sides of the political aisle, some who are courageous Jesus followers, who are Democrats, who read their democratic leftist policies over Jesus and turn Jesus into a liberal. I also know lots of Christians who are conservatives and they start with their conservative politics and they try to read that over Jesus and they end up with a conservative Jesus. I'm trying to name that when it comes to hermeneutics. That's called eisegesis. You're taking something from your environment and reading it over Jesus in a way that distorts who Jesus is. We have to start with Jesus in his context and allow him to correct our context.

Katie:

Yeah.

Mac:

And so this is why I'm just gonna be honest in his context and allow him to correct our context. Yeah, yeah, and so this is why I'm just gonna be honest. I don't check political ID cards at the door. We have people who lean more right and lean more left in our congregation and I think that's wonderful, like I think that's great. Okay, but you're not gonna find us consistently landing in one category or the other, because I don't think Jesus does. I came across this quote from Brian Zahn that really resonates with how I pastor in this political moment. He says I absolutely refuse to be an accomplice in trying to turn the church into the religious wing of a political party Republican, democrat, whatever, I won't do it. The church is an embassy of the kingdom of Christ, a kingdom that is not from this world.

Katie:

Yeah, I hear you naming. If I could summarize, I hear you naming a challenge for Jesus followers is really engaging our politics in a way that's shaped by Jesus, rather than letting our politics distort how we understand Jesus.

Mac:

Yes.

Katie:

Rather than taking this political lens that we might have and then reading that over Jesus, allowing Jesus to speak for himself.

Mac:

Yes, and let started by making a case yes to that. And I think I'm saying something in addition to that, which is when we start with Jesus. My conviction is that Jesus wasn't apolitical. He didn't just bury his head in the sand. The stuff he did had political implications in his day and age, and so that means that us following Jesus today as a community of people will also not be apolitical. It will have political implications, but I'm also naming those don't neatly fit into right, left or middle. Jesus can't be confined to those neat spaces without distorting and contorting who Jesus is and what the kingdom of God looks like. And so, yes, the challenge very much is letting Jesus shape our politics versus having our politics distort and contort Jesus to fit our preferences. And I want to name that is going to be very difficult work.

Katie:

Yeah, right, yeah, I, yeah. I mean I might say especially so for me. I mean most people know this, but I worked in conservative politics for nearly a decade before coming here.

Mac:

Then you got saved.

Katie:

Yeah, I'm just kidding Funny back, but it's not surprising that I think politics was a lens through which I saw much of the world.

Katie:

It was just the world I lived in and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. But where I would say it can become problematic is when politics becomes a lens through which we see Jesus. I would just echo what you're saying there. If I could name one thing that I think makes us really susceptible to this which I was doing because it was part of my job is just consuming a lot of political news coverage I would argue that the more we're steeped in political news and commentary, the more susceptible we are to seeing Jesus through that lens. It's no secret that whatever you focus your attention on is going to have a shaping influence on your perspective, your opinions, your convictions, and so, as Christians, if we spend more time consuming political news than we do consuming the teachings of Jesus, what happens is we do, I think, end up reading Jesus in a way that sort of affirms our political ideology, rather than just reading Jesus for what he's saying, regardless of how it might square with our political beliefs.

Mac:

Can I name something on that? Not only does it like distort Jesus, but it actually, in some instances, prompts us to reject Jesus's life and teachings. Can I give an example of this? Okay, so this was. This was four or five years ago, I don't know when the timeline is, but we were preaching through the book of James. James was the brother of Jesus and he has a lot to say about some of the stuff we've been talking about. In fact, he directly challenges mistreatment of the poor and favoritism and things of that sort. So we preaching through scripture and preaching through this book, you can't just skip over parts that are uncomfortable, you have to preach through it.

Mac:

I ended up preaching on um, you know, god's heart for the poor, and the favoritism, and all that kind of stuff. Okay, and afterwards I had other people. I had someone come up to me and say are we going woke as a church? Now, let's make sense of that. Let's just unpack that for a moment. What's happening there? What's happening there? What's happening is you have someone who, like you said, is reading what I'm saying through a political filter that's been shaped by the media and news or the political tribe that they belong to and the idea of caring for the poor is now sort of been hijacked from something Jesus cares about to the left oh, it's the left that cares for the poor. That's their agenda. That's wokest thought right.

Mac:

And so the moment you're starting to preach on something that the New Testament teaches or Jesus says, like we should care for the poor, they're now filtering that through. That belongs to the left. That's a leftist agenda. Now notice to the degree you've done that. You now no longer are in sync with what Jesus is actually saying or doing. You're essentially discrediting Jesus because of your political ideology.

Katie:

Right.

Mac:

And so I learned a lot from that moment. To go hey, hey, hey, hey, time out. Caring for the poor doesn't belong to the left, that belongs to Jesus.

Mac:

And what's more and Katie, you've taught me so much about this Oftentimes the primary markers that political parties, like their platforms that they stand on, don't actually do the work that they say they're going to do. So sometimes there is this sloppy sort of association that the left cares for the poor and the right doesn't. But as I've had numerous conversations with you on the actual policy level, which is ridiculously complicated, you've pointed out to me and shown me from a policy standpoint how flimsy that correlation is, that in fact there's tons of people on the right who care for the poor. The left doesn't get to claim that as their own, and some of the policies on the left that purportedly care for the poor actually do a really crummy job of doing it. Know what I mean. It's more complicated and nuanced than anybody wants to think it is.

Katie:

It's really complicated and very nuanced and we could spend a lot of time here. I mean, I could probably monologue for a couple hours, but I won't do that. Yeah, it also makes me think of so, mac, you and I co-lead our racial peacemaking kingdom community and I had someone maybe more than one person be confused about how I could be politically conservative and then lead that group, like isn't that a liberal issue? And it's kind of the same response, like no, it's a kingdom issue. And do the political parties have something to say about this? Sure, absolutely. There's all sorts of debates flying around and different solutions that are put on the table, but Jesus had something to say too.

Katie:

And if we're talking about taking Jesus seriously again, I think the work is to go to the scriptures to see what Jesus is saying and doing first. Let him speak for himself first, rather than taking those political beliefs and taking this modern political conversation and environment and reading that into the scriptures. And it can happen on the left, it can happen on the right. You might hear you know you mentioned your example you might hear a pastor talk about anything, the sanctity of life and you think, oh see, I know Jesus was a Republican, and you immediately import all the connotations that that might have in our context. Or like immigration policies, racial reconciliation, sanctity of marriage, I mean, take any of these issues and I think that's a good example to go.

Katie:

If you're hearing someone preach about this, you're hearing a teaching on it, and you immediately dismiss them as being put into a political box. You might sort of be susceptible to this. Now, that said, can pastors and preachers and teachers have political agendas? Absolutely Right, like I'm not saying we shouldn't be discerning. Yes, people can have political agendas, but if you're so quick to dismiss because you're just putting it in that box that you don't want to deal with it, you might be really missing the teaching and what they have to say.

Mac:

Maybe I could just normalize the work here. Some main pieces. When it comes to integrating study of life, the life and teachings of Jesus and what the kingdom of God looks like with our present moment, we're saying you've got to become a student, the life and teachings of Jesus and what the kingdom of God looks like with our present moment. Okay, we're saying you've got to become a student. This is what it means to be a disciple. By the way, the word disciple literally means student. You've got to become a student of Jesus, his life and his teachings and his ministry, and understand him in his context, like we've been talking about. When it comes to, what does that look like as a community to embody the way of Jesus in a way that has political implications? That is a big question that I don't have all the answers to. We need to learn how to quibble about how this works out in our present moment with a lot of maturity.

Mac:

At the end of the day, like a federal election will come up and you're going to have two candidates that you can, two more likely candidates that are going to, you know, assume office and you're going to have to likely vote.

Mac:

We live in a context where we get to vote on those. We have a say on those kinds of things, and part of doing this work as a church is to go in light of Jesus's life teachings and what we know about the kingdom of God that Jesus reveals and came to bring. What do we do? And we're going to probably have some lively discussion about the pros and cons, because that's complicated when different policies bubble up in our day and age and it's like well, we need to be able to hold space that involves disagreement and dialogue and nuance, and be able to see things from different vantage points to go. What does a wise and mature Jesus follower or community of people have to say about this kind of a thing and make enough room for disagreement that we may not see it the exact same way? You know what I mean Totally.

Josiah:

Yeah, this paradigm shift is. To me it's very empowering because let's just take an issue such as caring for the poor. You can't read the teachings of Jesus very long before you're going to see that it's important to him. So when we take an issue that's so near and dear to Jesus' heart and structural to how his kingdom functions in the world, and we just outsource it to modern American political parties to try to figure it out, it's actually like a, it's sort of like it's just waters down the whole thing we're supposed to be doing as Jesus followers. We're outsourcing the work we should be doing.

Josiah:

Yes. So it's like should we care about the political things? Yes, and honestly, probably more than I do, I tend to be more apathetic about these things. I'm glad you brought that up Especially well. When it comes to partisan American politics, I'm very checked out. However, when I see it this way, it's like wow, maybe, instead of seeing it as oh, this threatens. Now I have to be challenged.

Josiah:

If I'm going to be a Republican, if I'm going to vote Republican or Democrat, vote however you feel like you need to, but don't outsource the really important matters of the kingdom of God to our American political system. Amen, Don't do that. There's challenge on both sides of how each side is going to handle an issue, because they're not the kingdom of God, they're not going to be motivated by the same things you are. So seeing it as caring for the poor primarily is our responsibility as a church, and to the degree that these political measures are going to help and benefit in that great, and to the degree that they are challenging or hindering that work, then we're going to challenge that. But the point is, don't see it as the like it's just waters down our impact that we can have in our local communities as a church and as a community. That is the hands and feet of Jesus. It just waters it down to say the hands and feet of Jesus are the Republican or Democratic Party.

Katie:

Yeah, that's just like kind of gross Right and it begs the question for me like what are we giving our best energy to? Right, Like?

Mac:

Yeah.

Katie:

Rather than spending all this time sort of thinking and arguing and listening to and all of that about caring for the poor like just go do it.

Mac:

Right, let's go do it. Right, let's go do it. Yeah, and this is where I feel like I have a lot of clarity on what the kingdom of looks like, that Jesus reveals, but if you're listening to this, please hear me. I have way less clarity on all the implications of that, for instance, on that issue caring for the poor on a policy level.

Mac:

That's just beyond my area of expertise, katie. You know way more about that than I do, so I defer to those who are more knowledgeable. But here's what I'll say about our church community. That I'm really proud of is that as we've gotten clarity about what Jesus's kingdom looks like and we've described several of those characteristics we now have groups of people in the form of kingdom communities that are devoted to putting those things on display, working in those areas. So you named the racial peacemaking group.

Mac:

That's not so much a political statement in terms of American politics as much as it is a kingdom statement that the kingdom of God belongs to every race and ethnicity and all barriers or walls that are erected that prevent that. We want to be part of tearing those down and we have a group of people that maybe some lean more Democrat, some lean more Republican, doesn't matter. They're unified around that work and we're partnering with bridge builders. We've got a kingdom community that's really started in the past six months or so, focused on food scarcity and homelessness. Same thing. It's not so much a political ideology that's driving that from American politics, right or left. It's a group of people saying this is a kingdom issue and in that group I'm fairly certain there's some people who lean more left and more right on the, but they're doing the kingdom work together in a unified way.

Mac:

And I could keep going. But you're right that one of the ways to sort of get out of the entanglement and the entrenchment that actually dilutes our work and our witness is to simply focus on where God's kingdom is arriving through God's spirit right now and joining that work together with linked arms and hands. And I see our church doing that and I'm so stinking proud. I have other pastors reach out to me and ask what we're doing and I tell them this is how our church is being unified, despite all the political polarity and division that exists in this cultural moment.

Katie:

Yeah, yeah, that's because, again, we don't put our ultimate hope in politics, because politics doesn't change hearts, right, the gospel is what changes hearts. So we put our hope in Jesus and we don't check out Right and what Jesus is, he says and does has a significant implications. Maybe a stab at summarizing yeah, that's a good word. Praxis podcast.

Mac:

It's praxis time and it's good. That's good. Let's give okay. If you're listening to this and you're feeling triggered, just take a deep breath. Please Just take a deep breath. It's okay. If you don't agree with everything we've said today, that's okay. It's a sign of maturity to be able to give space for other people to have their own convictions. You're responsible for what you believe, I'm responsible for what I believe, and we grow together as we learn how to share dialogue space charitably. Right, so let's just we're okay, but maybe let's give some practices in light of this axiom that God's kingdom looks like Jesus's ministries, of this axiom that God's kingdom looks like Jesus's ministries.

Josiah:

What do we do with this? Yeah Well, practice one is kind of what we're doing here Just become a student of how, of Jesus's politics. What did? How did Jesus structure his ministry? How did he live his life? Those things can bring a lot of clarity and we dismiss those very easily, or we do the other problem, which is to take our political ideologies and read into what Jesus did and we morph him into something else and be willing to let go of some of those things. Remind ourselves that the work of ushering in the kingdom of God is not for our political party in which we vote for. That's not their job. That's our job as a church to join God in his work, and it starts by just being able to understand who is Jesus, what did he do and what does that look like for us to follow him in a way that actually looks like Jesus' ministry.

Mac:

Become a student of Jesus, and here's where we can't do that by ourselves. You know I can only see what I can see and sometimes I need other people's observations to help me see things I otherwise wouldn't. And this is where reading is really important. Interacting with other people who have, in some cases, given their entire lives to studying this particular issue or that issue can go a long way in terms of helping you see things in new and fresh ways. So I just wanted to name maybe a couple of resources to go. Okay, if I'm going to become a student of Jesus and specifically the political implications of Jesus's life and teachings, where would I start?

Mac:

A couple books the Politics of Jesus by John Howard Yoder is sort of like a baseline book that everybody has to read if you're going to engage this conversation. Not saying you're going to agree with everything in it or in any of these other books that I'm recommending, but it's just like welcome to the conversation. This is sort of like prerequisite required reading. I really like the book Kingdom Ethics by Glenn Stassen. He goes through the Sermon on the Mount, jesus' primary group of teachings and then wrestles with those teachings in light of present day issues, and I think it's really well done. I'd highly recommend it. You're gonna need to read some Stanley Hauras books like Resident Aliens, things like that. He's a big voice in this conversation.

Mac:

There's a book I read recently called Just Politics by Ron Snyder and I thought it was really well-balanced and well done. There's another book called the Politics of Jesus by Obrey Hendrix. I'd recommend the first half of this book, not so much the second half. Obrey Hendricks I'd recommend the first half of this book, not so much the second half. I feel like he kind of does a great job articulating Jesus's life and teachings and what they meant in his political context and the whole second half of the book. He basically comes out Democrat and I was like I think I'd maybe challenge some of the ways you're, but that's just me.

Mac:

And then finally, a lot of people were seeing this phrase a lot Christian nationalism, where almost like America is a Christian nation and is the epicenter of God's kingdom arriving rather than actually it being Jesus. The Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd is a book I'd highly recommend. Christian nationalism is a form of idolatry. It just is, because the kingdom of God doesn't center on any one nation and actually it's a fairly ignorant perspective. If I'm being honest, I don't mean that in a harsh way, but if you just look at where the majority of Christians are located right now, it's in the southern hemisphere. God's kingdom seems to be breaking in in the southern hemisphere more than the United States right now.

Katie:

Yeah, that was a good book. Well, you just gave people a lot of homework, Mac.

Mac:

Sorry.

Katie:

No, those are good resources. I've read a number of them. Another practice I might name would just be learning to discuss this stuff with maturity. Maybe, contrary to what your emotional intelligence book says, I think we actually should grow in our capacity to be able to dialogue, and to dialogue with people not only who think like us, but who think differently from us, and hopefully you have some good dialogue partners who are also committed to putting their allegiance to Jesus first, so you can grapple through this together and hopefully listening to this podcast isn't the only place where you'll kind of think about this and work through it. I would encourage you, especially if something is stirring in you, to continue to engage with those around you and to do so from a place of maturity where you're able to listen curiously and compassionately rather than trying to like, argue or convince people to agree with you.

Mac:

There's an awesome organization that is equipping churches to do this work. It's called the Colossian Forum. I know it through our work with the leaders journey, but they exist to create spaces for people to navigate conflict with maturity, and they're doing awesome work around bringing people of different political convictions and teaching them how to do that. Well, I grabbed this statement from their website. Christians face intense disagreements, which often lead to polarization and division, but it doesn't have to be that. Well, I grabbed this statement from their website. Christians face intense disagreements, which often lead to polarization and division, but it doesn't have to be this way. Conflict can be an opportunity to build deeper relationships with God and each other. There's a way to harness the energy of conflict for love.

Mac:

The Colossian Forum works with people to cultivate connections across difference. We teach leaders how to proactively identify and lean into potential areas of conflict. Leaders how to proactively identify and lean into potential areas of conflict and how to better care for people when conflict arises. And they actually have a curriculum for groups learning how to engage in political dialogue when there's difference. So I just named that. If you're listening to this and you're like, hey, I am not scared to talk with people who maybe have different political convictions than I do and would love to create a space to do that reach out and maybe we can get you connected to some of that curriculum and you could create like a little experiment to go. Hey, we want to grow in this and learn how to do this with more love and charity yeah, I love that you know.

Mac:

And then a final practice I would name is just shift from commenting to participating Kind of goes back to your point. If you're, you know, watching 10 hours of Fox News or CNN every day and then developing opinions on federal policies or whatever, knock it off. Your time is way better spent getting involved in a kingdom community where you're actually embodying the kingdom of God with your hands and feet and in and alongside other people. You know what I mean. So one of the ways to navigate all the political division and polarity that exists is to put your primary energy not in tracking the news and forming opinions that aren't going to change anything, but to actually use your energy to embody God's kingdom in a particular area alongside others. Join our racial peacemaking community. Serve at Bridge Builders. Get involved in our anti-human trafficking group, you know. Learn how to serve the poor through our KC. That way, put your energy into the local embodiment of God's kingdom, because what I'm noticing is it actually brings diverse groups of people together and gives witness to the beauty of God's kingdom.

Katie:

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. Yeah, and I'm just a thought that just occurred to me as we're wrapping up this episode. I wasn't planning to say this, but if you're listening and there's something that you really wanna like double click on, or something that really kind of stirs in you, or you're just thinking like well, I wish, I wish I would say more about that, like I'm not really, I'm still not sure what this means or that means.

Katie:

We always encourage you to reach out send us an email, and it may be something that we could address in a future episode or a blog post or find another way to dig into Cause again. As you said, Mac, there's so much more than what we can cover here and I think we did the best we could with the limited space we have, but I'd be really curious to see what this stirs in people.

Mac:

Yeah, I had a guy come up to me two weeks ago and he said hey, I would love if you would preach a sermon on how to relate to others, given all the political stuff that's happening. And I said yeah, that's really hard to do from a sermon, but maybe on our podcast. We want you to shape this podcast. If you have a topic or a question that will very much guide us in how we might put together a future, future episodes, and if you're upset about something you heard today, email Katie Actually.

Josiah:

Adam.

Katie:

Yeah, thanks for crosspointwicom.

Mac:

Thanks for joining us today. We hope you were able to tolerate today's episode. Next time we're going to look at another core conviction when it comes to multiplying disciples who live on mission in the world.

Katie:

And it's this trust leads and effort. Follows a review and, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

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Mac McCarthy

Host
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Josiah Shirek

Co-host
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Katie Ignatowski

Co-host