Praxis
Praxis
Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation: What's the Difference?
The journey from forgiveness to reconciliation is one of the most challenging paths in Christian discipleship. While many believers embrace God's forgiveness and understand the importance of forgiving others, the question of what comes next often leaves us confused, frustrated, or even stuck.
In this episode, we unpack a powerful distinction that clarifies the forgiveness process: "Forgiveness is a solo, reconciliation is a duet." Through the inspiring story of Elizabeth Elliott, who forgave and lived among the indigenous people who killed her missionary husband, we witness the transformative power of extending grace beyond our human capacity.
But what happens when forgiveness doesn't lead to reconciliation? Must we always return to relationship with those who've hurt us? We explore the nuanced spectrum of reconciliation—from simple cordial peace to full relational restoration—and the wisdom required to discern what's appropriate in each situation. When trust has been broken, particularly in cases of abuse or serious harm, reconciliation may look very different than simply returning to how things were.
At the heart of genuine reconciliation is a mutual commitment to acknowledging reality. Without both parties willing to face the truth of what happened, reconciliation becomes impossible or unsafe. Yet even when perspectives differ, grace can cover the gaps when hearts are open.
For those navigating this difficult terrain, we offer practical guidance on setting healthy boundaries, clarifying your needs, and communicating respectfully during the recalibration process. Whether you're seeking reconciliation with someone who's not ready or discerning how to respond to someone who wants to reconnect with you, these practices can help you embody both grace and wisdom.
Ready to deepen your understanding of forgiveness and reconciliation in your own relationships? Listen now, and discover how to practice the way of Jesus even in your most challenging relationships.
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen. We're in a series on the topic of forgiveness right now, and few topics are more central to the Christian faith. Through Jesus, God offers us forgiveness and invites us into a restored relationship.
Speaker 1:It's easy for us to rejoice in God's gift of forgiveness into a restored relationship. It's easy for us to rejoice in God's gift of forgiveness, yet we often have a hard time practicing forgiveness towards others. Rather than embracing the freedom and transformation that comes with forgiveness, including the possibility of reconciled relationship, we get stuck in bitterness and resentment, to our own detriment. So in this series, we're talking about how to practice and embody the forgiveness that Jesus invites and challenges us to live into, whether it's learning how to receive God's forgiveness, asking others to forgive you or extending forgiveness to others. Our hope and prayer is that you'd sense God inviting you deeper into practicing the way of Jesus with us. Today, we want to tease out the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, and what it means to practice the former while being open to the latter. So that's where we're headed today. Let's do it.
Speaker 2:Welcome everyone. My name is Mac, I'm Katie, I'm Josiah. So at the time of this recording, we just celebrated Easter and I gave up coffee for Lent and it was horrendous. We know it sounds terrible, it's awful, but one of the things that happened to me while giving up coffee for Lent was that I had many dreams about coffee while sleeping. Stop it, I'm not joking you guys. I had several dreams. One I was drinking coffee and consuming a donut.
Speaker 3:Your two favorite things.
Speaker 2:I got bombarded with dreams about coffee, that's really funny. And and then I found myself researching coffee quite a bit, and to reward myself, for, you know, my being a professional Christian.
Speaker 3:I mean right, I mean I really nailed it.
Speaker 2:I bought a Turkish coffee pot. Oh cool, I tried it yesterday for the first time. So it's like this little pot and you basically the coffee grounds are very fine and you basically bring it to a boil. It's very strong and it was amazing.
Speaker 2:But it made me think of this question and Katie just humor me because I know you have an allergy to coffee and every once in a while you kind of like test it again to see if you're still allergic. And yep, you are, but you still can have like fun drinks. You know what I mean. Like you're still able to do some things. But what is your favorite way to consume coffee, like in terms of how it's prepared?
Speaker 3:At this point, I would say anyway.
Speaker 2:Anyway.
Speaker 3:But like if you were to go to like you know what I mean say anyway, anyway, like if you were to go to like you know what I mean. Yeah, I remember, I studied abroad, in Spain, when I was in college, and Europe has the best coffee, the best coffee.
Speaker 3:So I remember being in Italy taking a little. You know you can get really cheap flights once you're in Europe, kind of around to the different countries at least. Then you could Um, and I just remember, like their cappuccinos I guess they were smaller, they weren't like venti Starbucks size like we get here. They're smaller but so much better, just higher quality, really frothy milk I love, just like a little little little bit of sugar, like just a little flavor, not too sweet.
Speaker 2:A smidgen, just a smidge.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, that was some of the best coffee. Oh, and ice cream. They have these ice cream drinks where it's like picture a cappuccino with like a scoop of ice cream. I remember just being in heaven.
Speaker 1:That's an affogato. Yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, bad that, that's cool, that's my favorite at Tulsi in town.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's cool. I never knew this.
Speaker 2:Well, hey, maybe we'll have to take a little uh vacation at some point, a little field trip.
Speaker 3:Next time I'm ready to test my esophagus and see if I can handle it. Let's go.
Speaker 1:That does sound fun.
Speaker 2:What about you, dude? I mean, we were at Silent Retreat and you brought like a full Chemex set.
Speaker 1:So you're into this man, you guys are both major coffee snobs, yeah. I wouldn't consider myself a snob, but I have learned to appreciate coffee as one of my favorite blessings in life.
Speaker 1:I think I don't have super strong preferences. I guess it depends on this, Depending on the context. I can appreciate coffee for what it is in just about any context. So if it's late at night and you're trying to stay up late and you're at a gas station and you have burnt coffee that's been sitting there all day, you can appreciate it for it being bad. Gas station coffee I can also appreciate when I have time.
Speaker 2:Katie just threw up in her mouth a little bit. Yeah, I can't get there I can't do it If you had to pick. This is my favorite way that it is prepared.
Speaker 1:I would say a V60 pour over, prepared and drinking fresh and appreciating all the notes. For sure, there's a lot of things I would give up, and I'm not going to give up coffee for any reason.
Speaker 3:You guys, may know that I was a barista in high school and college.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:But is now Java Hut downtown. Used to be DG Beans and worked there through college. No, sorry, worked there in high school and then in college, worked at Starbucks. And when you work at Starbucks, they want you to try every single one of their coffee blends so that you can recommend them, so you did it all in one day.
Speaker 2:Yeah probably, and that's probably why I'm now allergic. Well, um, speaking of a good pour over, welcome to the Praxis podcast. Um, we're in this series on forgiveness and over the last few episodes in this series we've been starting with like a feature story that sort of exemplifies, in a courageous way, forgiveness. So we've talked about Ruby Bridges and Corrie Ten Boom and Josiah, you were going to bring a story for today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm going to. I want to share a story about some missionaries that this was actually a bedtime story that my dad would read us when we were younger. He loved courageous stories of missionaries, kind of leaving everything behind and going to a people group that had never been contacted before. So he had a collection of books on these things and he would naturally read them to little kids before they go to bed. Naturally, on these things, and he would naturally read them to little kids before they go to bed. So, yeah, I have fond memories of that.
Speaker 1:But, more importantly, this is the story of a man named Jim Elliott and his wife, elizabeth Elliott. She documents about this story in a book called Through Gates of Splendor and she met her husband in a group of missionaries. They were there were these four other guys from um, from college, that they had all gotten together and they were doing other types of missions work. They ended up going together to um, the Auka people in Ecuador. I think maybe their name has changed over time, but this is what they were called at the time of the book Um. But so her, her husband, she was only married for a little bit. They had a 10 month old daughter and he uh he and three other people go to visit this people group that had never been contacted before by anybody on the outside, and they ended up being speared to death basically upon entry. So they were killed right away and it was tragic, but it wasn't long after.
Speaker 2:And your dad read this to you right before bed.
Speaker 3:Yes, gory, details and all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like that prayer. I think Tim Hawkins makes fun of this. Like now, I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep if I should die, before I wake like, as if it's like comforting to kids.
Speaker 1:I wasn't thinking about death until now night night kids sleep tight so, yeah, so he and his three other friends that he went there to minister minister with are end up end up being murdered by these people and, um, rather than staying bitter and um, you know, I, I imagine that many people might even have a deconstructing of faith moment, knowing that you're trying to do a good work in the world and you die for it she ends up doubling down and tries even harder to try to contact the tribe, ends up having her she had a missionary friend and they ended up making contact with someone in like a neighboring tribe and, long story short, she learns the language, forgives the people for what they had done and ends up moving into their tribe with her three-year-old daughter for two years and after being accepted.
Speaker 1:Now, if you read in the book, you can read numerous stories of just God's kingdom breaking through in that area. That was like a headhunting tribe that ended up discovering Jesus in a really, really cool way. And I just find it inspiring because, if you remember we had talked about this before that forgiveness can be this. It's like your ability to be a conduit of God's love breaking through into someone else's life as well. Like it becomes, it just flows through you and to see a story where it could have ended in bitterness ended up being and this person ended up channeling God's love and forgiving these people and ended up being a gateway into discovering who God is and God's kingdom breaking through in an area where it wasn't.
Speaker 2:What that unlocks for me, kingdom, breaking through in an area where it wasn't. What that unlocks for me, josiah, is, especially given that the story is one of mission work. You know, is just that this work of forgiveness was an embodiment of the gospel. So the gospel is demonstrated through the act of forgiveness, which then opens them up to receiving a message of forgiveness that they desperately need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I just think that's really powerful and a good reminder that, like our living into the kingdom can't just be with words but with actions, and so learning to forgive is part of how we embody God's kingdom here and now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right, yeah, yeah, and I think it's Weren't like cannibals, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, before bed.
Speaker 3:Learning about that before bed yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gosh.
Speaker 3:Thanks dad.
Speaker 2:It's shocking that you came out somewhat normal.
Speaker 1:I always found him very inspiring. He liked reading missionary stories. He he read us others of of like Bible smugglers and stuff, kind of these miraculous stories.
Speaker 2:I can see how it'd be like a good pump up type thing, like here's these courageous people that are doing really you know, awesome things. You know it's more like I don't know. Most people listen to a Metallica song or, you know, watch Rocky in the training scene or something, but your dad read stories of missionaries risking it all?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and if you know my dad, it's not surprising.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:He's a passionate and intense person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I like that about your dad. Love it Cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a cool story. Thanks for sharing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this story works on another level for this podcast, because what this story exemplifies was a process of forgiveness while also moving into reconciliation with the people who had wronged her. So maybe that's a good segue into getting into what this podcast series sorry, this podcast episode is going to be about.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So in this series we've been journeying through the topic of forgiveness and we've covered a lot of important ground. In our last episode, we discussed the practical mechanics of forgiveness. So we talked about making an intentional decision to forgive. We talked about what it looks like to cancel the debt or verbally declare forgiveness through prayer and journaling, or telling the other person that you forgive them. We also looked at aligning our actions with a posture of forgiveness, Like once we say we've forgiven, how do we actually act like it? And then we talked about how forgiveness is a process and how we have to continue to choose it, even when we're triggered, Like just because we choose forgiveness doesn't mean our emotions completely go away and bam, we're zapped into feeling differently about it. So I encourage you to go back and listen to the previous episodes in the series. They've laid a really important groundwork. Today we're going to ask the question after you've forgiven someone, what does it mean to be open to reconciliation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you've heard this if you're part of our church community. We've said this from the stage while preaching and we probably said it in this podcast a few times so far. But it's just this idea that forgiveness is a solo whereas reconciliation is a duet. I think Cameron is the one who brought that language to us. He was talking to him about it. He had a professor at Multnomah, where he went to school, who taught pastoral counseling or something like that, and he shared that. I just think I love that. It's so sticky. I think it's helpful. Just imagine someone playing the piano right, and a solo is them sitting on the bench by themselves and they're the only ones touching the keys, whereas a duet is someone sitting next to them on the bench and they're both playing different parts, and that sort of captures what we're trying to say. Whereas forgiveness is something, it's a song, you can play all by yourself, reconciliation is not something you can do by yourself. It actually requires two people coming together and both extending and receiving forgiveness, as is appropriate, depending on where responsibility lands to restore what's ever broken in the relationship.
Speaker 2:I want to insist on something, though, today, which is that the way of Jesus does not only call us to forgive, but it actually calls us beyond mere forgiveness into reconciliation, and this actually strikes me as being at the core of the gospel. The gospel isn't just about forgiveness, it's ultimately about reconciliation. So I want to read just briefly from 2 Corinthians 5. Paul says therefore if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come. The old is gone, the new is here. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. That God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them, and he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you, on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. There's so much we could unpack about those verses. They're really dense. But I want us to notice that God was not merely forgiving the world in Jesus, he was paving the way for something additional or bigger, and that is reconciliation. He's reconciling the world to himself and in light of that, we've been given the same ministry, this ministry of reconciliation, and we're now to be ambassadors of reconciliation in the world. So forgiveness is obviously an essential ingredient of reconciliation, but reconciliation is more than just forgiveness. So the point is is that everything we've been focusing on so far has been about forgiveness, and now we're sort of crescendoing and going yep, but the gospel calls us beyond that, and I think this raises a lot of complications, like for me. When we go okay, we're not just called to forgive, but we're called to be reconciled to people, it just surfaces for me a lot of questions right away. So here's some questions that I wrote down that just go okay, but what does this actually mean?
Speaker 2:Okay, does reconciliation require any kind of sustained relationship with the other person, right? Or if I reconcile with the other person, right? Or if I reconcile with the other person, does that mean I have to continue in relationship with them? Like, do I have to go back to being best friends with them? Is that what that means? What does reconciliation mean if that person hasn't changed or is still a really unhealthy or toxic person to be around? What if the offense that I forgave was particularly nefarious? Like, what if that person abused you or you know it was a particularly offensive crime or whatever? What do you do if you want to be reconciled but the other person doesn't? And what do you do? What if they want to return to, maybe, a meaningful relationship, but you don't, or vice versa? So what do you do if you're not on the same page?
Speaker 2:One of the verses I hope we can integrate as we continue to talk, because I think it's sort of like one of the key ingredients for navigating this dynamic between forgiveness and reconciliation, is what Paul says in Romans 12, 18.
Speaker 2:He says, if it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone, and I love that verse because it sort of names responsibility. What we're going to see today in our conversation is that your job is to focus on you, to do the work of forgiveness and then be open open, that's a key word open to reconciliation so far as it is possible. But you can't control other people right. Whether they forgive you or will choose to reconcile you is not something you can manage. That's something that's up to them. So I just share that versus, maybe like a guiding principle as we make our way forward, that we're going to want to pay attention to, like what's ours to own and what belongs to other people, and Paul's challenge to go hey, what's ours to own and what belongs to other people and Paul's challenge to go. Hey, as far as it depends on you right, be at peace with everyone, knowing you can't, you know, control or manipulate someone else into a different space. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, I like the distinction that you made. I like the solo that forgiveness is a solo, reconciliation is a duet. Another phrase that I came across says forgiveness is like letting go of a heavy weight that you've been carrying. Reconciliation is like building a bridge with someone Like you're building a bridge and you sort of both have to be okay, you know, with that being there Another way of looking at this, I think forgiveness is primarily internal, whereas reconciliation involves some like external actions and interaction.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, I think those are all helpful frames for navigating this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what do you guys think about, I guess, this assertion I'm making, that the gospel calls us, beyond just forgiveness, to pursue reconciliation, and that reconciliation can be really complicated. Do you guys agree with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah for sure. I love the vision to put out there that all things will be reconciled to God, and that I find inspiring because even if things don't work out right now, I know God can, and that re-engages my energy to want to forgive and to enter into the work of remaining in right relationships so far as it depends on me. It is really complicated to go beyond and I think the distinction is important, that it's one of the reasons people sometimes resist forgiving, because they believe that it means that when I do, I'm going to have to pick up this relationship right where it left off, and sometimes, as we're going to hopefully unpack today, that's not always the wise move for either party.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, why don't we do this? Let's take some of those complicating questions and just kind of begin working through them. Maybe we can work through some of these questions because I imagine, for those who are listening, they face some messy situations where reconciliation wasn't as simple as two people just sitting down and playing chopsticks on the piano. Right, it's a little bit more complicated than that. So why don't we just kind of have an exploratory conversation around some of these questions and kind of get into the nuance, the nuance of things?
Speaker 1:All right, let's start with this question Does reconciliation require returning to a relationship with the other person?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think there's again some nuance to my answer. I would say yes and no, and here's what I mean. The yes part is based on the notion that reconciliation fundamentally means a restored relationship. Right, it involves mutual forgiveness, where both parties cancel the debt owed to each other, resulting in a restoration of right relationship between those two people. Anything less than that, to me at least, does not seem to be reconciliation. It's something less than reconciliation right At the heart of it. Reconciliation is a duet. It requires both people coming together, and so on and so forth. I forgive you, you forgive me, and we own our part.
Speaker 2:I think where the no comes into play is that reconciliation for me does not mean a return to sustained relationship or resuming the relationship with the other person. Necessarily it doesn't mean re-entering the same kind of closeness, trust or frequency of connection that we once shared. In fact, almost because the relationship broke in some way, it's almost imperative that we don't return to the relationship and repeat what led to the brokenness in the first place. Does that make sense? So it's almost like yes, reconciliation by definition requires a restored relationship, but then there's probably some discernment afterwards to go, and what kind of, if any, sustained relationship are we going to pursue? Does that make sense? What do you guys think?
Speaker 3:I hear you using two terms that I want to zoom in on and I'm just curious about. I hear you using the term restored relationship to talk about kind of getting back to this sense where the relationship can be restored to a sense of you know. I assume that means having some peace between each other. I'd be curious to hear what you say about that. And then I also hear you talking about sustained relationship and I'd love to dive into the difference between those two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so at least for me, and if you guys don't share the same perspective, chime in. But reconciliation I see, at least scripturally, being about right relationship. So there's a sense in which whatever was broken we're acknowledging and forgiving, and now we're right that no longer is the debt that was there is over on both sides. But that's to me different than what might continue moving forward. So maybe an illustration would help.
Speaker 2:Our church went through a really messy time, you know, seven some years ago. It ended up being almost pretty much a church split and Josie and I lost some friendships in the process and one of them in particular stung way more than the others. They were like our best friends. I mean, honestly, stung doesn't quite capture the dynamic. It felt like an emotional root canal without anesthesia. It was awful and I'll circle back to the story, I think, later on in this episode.
Speaker 2:But part of the challenge was is that there wasn't great communication along the way and we wanted to have some opportunity to talk to them and and they they didn't um, they didn't really want to to talk much and it just put us in a really awful situation where we're like, hey, there's stuff going on here we need to talk about. It shared what happened from each other's vantage points. Here's what happened from our vantage point. They shared et cetera, and we each were kind of able to lean in compassionately and with sympathy and go okay, I see that I see your perspective and make amends. We were able to make amends, own what we needed to own, take responsibility for what we needed to take responsibility for. We said the words I forgive you, and it went in every direction. Okay, at that point we're saying, hey, the past has been forgiven, we're in right relationship, right, but that reconciliation didn't result in us like re-upping and moving into trying to regain a relationship moving forward To this day. It's not like we hang out, we don't hang out.
Speaker 2:So there's a sense in which the past has been forgiven. I no longer hold that against them. I'm assuming based on what we did, they no longer hold it against me. But there's a separate question about okay, do we want to pursue friendship again? And there seems to be some mutuality to go that season's over, that season's over, and when I see them it's not like I hold anything against them, but we're also not back into it the way we once were. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's a distinct difference between holding a grudge and figuring out how to move forward in light of everything that happened. Like you said before, continuing an unhealthy relationship in the same way that caused the brokenness and wounding in the first place that needed to be forgiven like should sound unwise to us, like continuing it in the exact same way when all of that happened. Now, this could mean a variety of things which I'm sure we're going to get into, but it could be a redefined sense of boundaries with someone of like here's what I'm willing to do, here's what I'm not willing to do. In light of this, I don't want to continue the same patterns or things that caused wounding or pain.
Speaker 1:It could be renewed commitments If this is like a marriage and you're reconciling and you're trying to stay together and faithful to each other. It could be renewed commitments you're going to make to each other. Or it could be a perceived distance that, hey, continuing this in the same way isn't wise. So that's a distinct difference between. There's a distinct difference between what you're naming Mac and someone who is unwilling to go to the table to talk.
Speaker 2:Yes. Again, the question was does reconciliation require a return to relationship with the other person? I'm saying it requires a return to right relationship. There's no longer any brokenness between us in the sense of the wrong that was done no longer has the loudest voice. We've repaired that. But then there's this subsequent question which is like but are we going to continue to pursue relationship? Will there be any sustained or new relationship moving forward, knowing that we've repaired what's broken and I'm saying not necessarily so with this example I just shared the answer was no.
Speaker 2:There's no bad blood between us anymore. When we see them, we're able to operate with mutual respect and kindness. But when it comes to a sustained or meaningful relationship from now moving forward, we're not at that place. And so I guess maybe there's a question to go what's appropriate? What's appropriate Once you've reconciled meaning the thing that was broken, the wrongdoing that happened has been acknowledged and mutual forgiveness has been extended in both directions, and now you're discerning is sustained relationship appropriate and if so, what does that look like? Well, it's going to be complicated and I hear you speaking to some of that right, josiah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's a when, there's a when there's a relationship that is broken in some form in any manner. I guess there's an assumed sense of brokenness within certain patterns of the relationship. I guess maybe this is a little too zoomed out, but I'm thinking there's this sense of there's brokenness within the patterns of your relationship. To forgive each other and to run back into those same patterns would be silly. You'd just be running right back into the same brokenness. So if forgiveness and then reconciliation is restoring us towards right relationship with God, I would imagine that would assume that both people are ready to move forward towards God and then submitting those patterns to him. So maybe it's a long and maybe longer way to say that you're going to have to redefine what the relationship looks like now that we have new light and new insight into what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it comes to the second question, the second part, which is sustained relationship. I wrote down a few variables that seem important to attend to or to consider. So just try this on. One would be the seriousness of the wrongdoing. Right, there's probably a spectrum there. If it's a minor offense, if it's no big deal, then, like it, probably not going to mean the end of all relationship with the other person. But let's say it's a major, a major relational break, like you were physically or sexually abused or something like that. That is categorically different and probably by necessity means not returning in any sustained way to that relationship, right, if you've been in a highly abusive situation. So that's one variable name the seriousness of the wrongdoing. A second variable I wrote down was a person's desire to return to the relationship. Right, you may not want to and that's just to reckon with your own water to go, hey, I might not want to go back to this relationship for this or that reason. That's a variable that you would have to attend to. And then the final one is the one you keep highlighting, josiah, which is just the relational health and the restoration of trust Meaning if it means going back to the same brokenness that we had to forgive in the first place, not saying you can completely.
Speaker 2:You know not, you are going to be perfect human beings moving forward. Like every relationship, has some brokenness. Let's just acknowledge that. But if it just means stepping back into the same junk without any effort to improve or to learn or to grow, then that might be an indicator that this isn't healthy right, and I always say trust is something that's earned. It's like the way we build muscle it's through consistent effort over time. It's the same thing with trust. When there's a brokenness in relationship, there's always a fracture of trust and you shouldn't, you know, jump right back into it. Trust is built through consistent behavior over time, and if someone has proven that they're not trustworthy, if they haven't proven that yet, it's unwise to give them your trust right away. Again, that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I hear you saying that trust takes time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's just it's going to take time to reestablish or reenter into relationship after some hurt and pain. So I would say, don't expect yourself to figure this out overnight, right. Go to God in prayer, maybe seek the advice of others around you, perhaps a professional therapist, especially in situations you mentioned, like where abuse is involved. We've talked a lot about journaling. There are all sorts of ways, I think, that we can intentionally lean into this practice of what does it look like to rebuild trust and is it safe to do so?
Speaker 2:I was putzing around on chat GPT, and it gave me a chart like a spectrum, like let's pretend for a second that reconciliation can happen on a spectrum. So if we just assume so, here's the spectrum. One would be cordial peace. You let go of resentment and can be civil with the other person. That's like the bare minimum right. Second would be like sort of a clear the air moment where you address the wrongdoing, both sides own their part and you're kind of like we good, yeah, we're good Okay, and there's some communication. The third one is functional cooperation, which is you can work or interact without tension. The story I shared before about our falling out with some really good friends, that's where we're at. I see them and we could cooperate, we could like okay.
Speaker 2:The fourth one and here's where we're getting into more what I think a lot of people associate with reconciliation is emotional reconnection. There's warmth, mutual trust begins to form again, there's some emotional vulnerability that starts to take place again, right. And then the final one is full relational restoration, which is your back and deep relationship, just like it was before. And I guess the reason why I'm talking so much about this is because I think some people, just like they resist forgiveness because they confuse it with something that it's not, might resist reconciliation because they confuse it with those last two, which is reopening up emotionally or returning to the way it was, and I want to say no. Reconciliation at its bare minimum is just about you being rightly related to that other person and canceling the history of brokenness. But then there's a whole lot of discernment that you have about what does it look like to move forward in sustained relationship, if at all, does that? You ask, katie, about those two phrases I'm using. Does that bring clarity for you?
Speaker 3:It does it very much. Does you know I one of the maybe more obvious examples that comes to my mind of people who have divorced but still have to co-parent? And I feel like I've seen various um like degradations of how that works. For some it's like they don't talk at all, it's very minimal and it's just logistics, and some have developed like a really cooperative relationship. Obviously it doesn't look like it did when they were married, but but there's like a a fairly healthy relationship built on mutual respect and and.
Speaker 2:I think in churches, church environments, if we're not clear on some of what we're talking about, it can lead to some, it can do some bad work. So, for instance, have you ever confused forgiveness with reconciliation or experienced pressure to be reconciled with someone that may be at a level that wasn't appropriate? Let me give you an example. Okay, I know one woman who was touched inappropriately by her grandfather when she was going through adolescence, and when she told her parents what had happened, the grandfather denied it. Okay. So it kind of was a he said, she said type thing.
Speaker 2:And now fast forward. You know, many years later, the grandfather is still alive and still attends all the family functions, right, and everyone, in the name of reconciliation, expects her to show up at these family gatherings and act like everything's fine, even though there's been no acknowledgement that of what happened. In the name of forgiveness and reconciliation, does that make sense? So? So I think that there's there's a problem here when we assume, for instance, reconciliation means, hey, we're just going to return back to normal, when actually there's this offense, that even if the grandfather acknowledged it and said, will you forgive me, it still may not be wise for that woman to return to these family events. Yeah Right, and it's not because I no longer she could forgive him. I no longer hold that against you, but I don't trust you, mm-hmm, and I'm not going to put myself in your proximity anymore, because you haven't earned my trust.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense? Yeah, I guess I would. I agree with all of that. I think that if I'm sitting here and I'm trying to play this like another side of it, I do. I do think that there is a lot of nuance between I fully forgiven and I'm being wise and not trusting you. There is a big there. There doesn't seem to be a lot of difference on the outside of someone who says I forgive you but I'm refusing to go anywhere near you because I still resent you for everything you've done to me, and on the outside I think those two things could look very much the same to someone on the outside looking in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me play devil's advocate with myself, building on what you're saying Fun. Okay, let's do it for a moment, because here's the thing is I named one of the variables for determining what sustained relationship looks like is the degree of offense. Is it a particularly heinous or nefarious offense? Well, being your grandfather abusing you all the examples that I've used I go, hey, it may not be wise is a particularly nefarious offense.
Speaker 2:Now, if I'm going to play devil's advocate, I also see this happening in our culture a lot, where people have some relational I don't know baggage with someone else, like they just bump into each other, like any people we just do. We bump into each other, but then they give themselves in light that permission to ghost the other person in the name of this is toxic. And I only surround myself with people who are healthy and so on and so forth and, in the process, actually aren't embodying the heart of God, which is all points to reconciliation, and they're actually undoing opportunities for mutual transformation as disciples of Jesus, because it's actually when we work through conflict that there's an opportunity to grow.
Speaker 2:So, that's what I would say to me I'm very confused yeah that is true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of psychological language and lingo that has become the norm via social media in our time today and it's very easy to wield that like a weapon or a shield to keep from having to actually address things interpersonally with someone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, again there's the ghosting is so common now, or in Bowen family systems theory. It's a cutoff. We just cut off from people that are too challenging for us or where there's dynamics that didn't quote, unquote didn't do good work for me, rather than learning how to grow our own emotional maturity and interpersonal relationship with others by working through challenges, and that's the pushback. But that is infinitely harder if the toxicity is nefarious, and that's an important distinction that I want to make when it comes to arguing with myself. The examples that I'm going hey, sustained relationship probably isn't a good idea is when the offense was really serious. Everything else you know to a certain degree, is going to be something that you need to be open to, because I think the gospel calls us to it and and we'll, but we'll largely depend upon both people being willing to lean in.
Speaker 3:Yes. So one theme I'm hearing both of you say is that there's probably not a one size fits all for each and every relationship. It really does require tending to nuance, requires discernment and it requires sort of continually reflecting on your own heart with God, yeah. So here's another question Do you think it's possible to reconcile with someone else if they won't take responsibility for their wrongdoing? Like, what do we do if we're there, we're ready to reconcile and you know someone's like? Well, I didn't do that. Where do we go with that?
Speaker 1:I would say no. I don't think it's possible to reconcile into relationship with someone else in any sort of trusting capacity, with someone who is unwilling to take responsibility or, at minimum, agree with you about the reality of what happened. Agree with you about the reality of what happened, and I think that I often see people over-function and take way too much of the responsibility of what happened when they aren't the ones who did it, in the name of trying to get people, trying to restore a relationship. So you don't like the tension, you take more responsibility than you need to, and then the other person doesn't take enough and you've essentially done their job of reconciliation for them and created this pseudo, surface level, shaky, built on straw type of house of relationship, and I think that's what ends up happening and I think that we should have a much broader vision of what reconciled relationship looks like than that.
Speaker 2:I tend to agree with you, josiah. Again, going back to the definition, genuine reconciliation is a duet. It requires two people coming together and attending to reality and the wrong that actually took place. Um, then, in light of that, extending and receiving forgiveness, you know, based on each other's responsibility. Um, if someone isn't willing to own their part, then there is no reconciliation. You know what I mean. Like, reconciliation without responsibility isn't safe, it's not real. More often, just as you're naming, it's an appeasement strategy that leads to something less than being right. You get what I'm saying? Like, if built into the definition is two people owning their stuff and that's how we get right and one person isn't willing to do that or able to, well, then it's not possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's a difference between, oh, we're going to agree to disagree about what happened and you know, like about that, as opposed to someone who is straight up denying right. So like if you're straight up denying anything happened or it's like, well, that's not how I see it. All of that plays into how much you're able to trust if this person is going to meet you there. But at the end of the day, if you are wanting to be in some sort of like close proximity relationship with someone, and maybe this is probably like level three type of trust, you're going to need to be able to agree about the reality of what happened.
Speaker 1:Yes, and if you can't do that, building trust is going to be really difficult. And you're going to find that you're going to find that you're going to feel better walking away from a conversation. It's going to feel somewhat cathartic that you guys, you know, quote, unquote made up, and you're going to feel better walking away from a conversation. It's going to feel somewhat cathartic that you guys, you know, quote, unquote made up, and you're going to go away thinking, okay, it's all good now and for a minute you're going to be like we're good, but it's shaky, because trust can't be built when you both can't agree about what happened. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Yes, I would agree for the most part with what both of you are saying, and I would also want to maybe push back or, for a better term, just add, add some nuance. I think this idea that, hey, on some level, some shared reality is absolutely essential for moving forward, especially if you've got again abuse and someone's like there's gas lighting going on. I didn't do that. Well, okay, then clearly, yeah, this is not, this is not healthy or safe, but I could also. What gives me pause is I can think of specific examples in my own life where it, where it didn't totally feel like a shared, a shared reality was 100% possible, and yet there was some opportunity to just kind of like extend grace to cover the difference. And, in particular, one example that came to mind was from early on in my marriage.
Speaker 3:We had a season early on when we had brand new baby Charlie nine years ago.
Speaker 3:I was working a whole lot and my husband had a more flexible job and was taking on more of the responsibilities at home and was even a stay-at-home dad for a while, and that season was really difficult for us.
Speaker 3:I think we both did things that didn't navigate it as well as we could have and, as a result, we both did things that maybe required some forgiving, right, it was just a difficult season in a lot of ways, and as we moved out of that season we began to kind of debrief it and have conversations about it. And I'll be honest, like we some of, in some ways our perspectives were really far apart. Like it was just we both kind of came to the conversation ready to share our perspective and then have the other person apologize and like ready to forget whatever. And it didn't go that way. It was just this we had multiple conversations where it's just like it was like I don't remember it that way, I just don't remember it that way and we had to work really hard at parsing through actively listening, hearing what the other person was saying yes, taking ownership for what, what we could, and affirming kind of affirming Okay, I understand that you experience it that way, and then, in certain areas, just extending grace to cover the gaps.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Where they didn't totally align. Yeah, does that make?
Speaker 2:sense it totally does, and I think you just added a great addition to our conversation, or some nuance, because reconciliation requires attending to reality, okay, but there's a question mark about what reality is, and we need some humility, I think, to say I don't have like unfiltered access to reality. We all have a lens, we all have glasses. We're wearing that shape, the way we see things and perceive things. That's why we have four different gospel accounts. They're all narrating their experience of what Jesus was like. They're seeing it from their own vantage point, right.
Speaker 2:And so when there's a wrong or offense, what happens when two people don't agree on what actually happened?
Speaker 2:Right, and I think there's some nuance to unpack here, because what you are describing is you and Alex both attempting to attend to the truth of what happened, but starting in very different places.
Speaker 2:And then you had to do the work of okay, tell me what you noticed and how you saw it. And there's probably some like concessions you both made or oh, okay, I see how you right, I see how you see it that way, and so on and so forth, but both of you were actually attending to reality or attending to the truth based on where you were starting, with like openness of heart and a desire to move toward it, and I really liked the idea of grace covered where the differences were. I also want to name there's other situations where the person who did the wrongdoing has no interest in attending to the truth at all. They're committed to a fabricated version of reality because they want to maintain a sense of innocence or victimhood, and so they blame, they deflect, they distort, and in those situations I don't think it is wise or possible to pursue reconciliation. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:It does.
Speaker 2:And here's what's tricky is those people? If you actually so, I have an example, like there are a couple of people in my life, unfortunately, where I would love to be reconciled. I really would. There's a broken relationship and I'd love to be reconciled. I really would. There's a broken relationship and I'd love to be reconciled because I think the gospel calls us to that right.
Speaker 2:But I feel like, going back to Paul's verse, be at peace with all people. So far as it depends on you, I really feel like I have done what I can. I've sat in God's presence, prayed through each part of the brokenness, used Psalm 139, search me, oh God, and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there's any offensive way in me. I've talked to other people about it, shared what happened. What do I need to own Like? I've done all of the work right and I feel like man. I've done what I can. And this other person not only has a very different understanding of what happened, but seems to be operating out of a very different narrative altogether and has no interest in attending to the truth from my vantage point.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so maybe a key ingredient here is just some humility and some perspective taking.
Speaker 2:Yes, and what I'm saying is if the person isn't wanting to attend to the truth, even if you're starting at two very different reference points, I just don't know if reconciliation is possible if we don't have the common goal of attending to the truth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I see that.
Speaker 1:So maybe it's a variable scale of attending to the truth and that correlates somewhat, I would say pretty directly, to the amount you can trust or your ability to build trust with the person. So it's one thing to not see eye to eye and to say that you know, I hear you, it's not what I'm doing. You know we disagree about what happened and we're trying to figure that out. It's another thing to completely deny any wrongdoing and then reverse, reverse, victim the whole thing. Um, that would indicate a very low level of possible trust moving forward. So maybe we just correlate it that way, like it's not a one size fits all, like you were saying, it's like a scale of truth telling, or maybe a better way would be like there's like a scale of reality in which we can agree to of what happened and to the degree that we're unwilling to see it that way, or I should say an unwillingness to accept it at what it is, then that's going to impact how much you'll be able to build trust moving forward.
Speaker 2:Try this on for size Now. This is an attempt to summarize our best thinking in real time. A prerequisite for reconciliation is attending to reality. Prerequisite for reconciliation is attending to reality. I'm not saying that you have unfiltered access to reality. I'm saying the intention is to actually attend to the truth of what happened. And in your example with Alex, there was a genuine pursuit of that, even though it was messy and you started with very different frames of what happened. And I just want to make a distinction between like yeah, and that's a normal part of pursuing reconciliation with two different people, I mean you and I, the three of us. I've had conflict with each one of you in our long time working together and this is how it goes.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's not how.
Speaker 2:I saw it, this is how I saw it oh, okay, and back and forth, and then there's grace to cover whatever gap still may exist. Right, reconciliation is not us having the exact same perspective on every little thing, but that is very different from someone who doesn't even want to take a journey towards reality or the truth of what happened at all, because they have a vested interest in maintaining their innocence or status as a victim.
Speaker 3:It's a protective measure. A protective measure yeah, that feels like an important distinction.
Speaker 2:For some people, it will cost way more to attend to reality than to simply than their current reality of operating out of a false narrative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this is really good. Okay, so another question, let's flip this around. So what if you're? What do you do if you're open to being reconciled with someone, but the other person is not?
Speaker 3:Yeah, my mind goes back to the verse Romans 12, 18, that Max shared. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
Speaker 2:In the diagram that we've referenced a few times in this series, where we outline the cycle of enemy making, talk about cruciform forgiveness and then lay out the steps for forgiveness. The final step after forgiveness is reconciliation. But there's a little question mark there and underneath that question mark. If you go into the show notes and look at it, it says release, and what that is referring to is releasing it to God in prayer that God might. If you're open to being reconciled with someone else and so far as you can tell they're not open to being reconciled, the best thing you can do is maintain a clean heart towards that other person, rather than getting bitter at them for not wanting to be reconciled, and then pray and ask God to do the continued work in you and them to make reconciliation possible, knowing that is the telos of creation. So let me give you a story, and this goes back to the couple I alluded to earlier, our really close friends. We had a falling out. Part of what made that so tricky, as I alluded to, is that I really wanted to say I like talking things out. When there's a problem, I like to just sit down. Let's just be honest and transparent and talk things out and be reasonable. They did not want to, made it clear they didn't want to.
Speaker 2:In that season I had a back injury and that's another whole long story but I had a disc bulge from crossfitting too much to deal with the stress of a toxic work environment, blah, blah, blah. But I healed my back. I hurt my back and it was really bad and I was trying all different sorts of stuff to try to like relieve the pain and get back on track PT and chiropractors and so on and I had a lot of appointments and at one of the appointments they put like this little TENS unit on my back and then just like leave me in the room for 20 minutes a half an hour to get some like blood flow to the area and reduce inflammation. So I had this I don't know about 20 or 30 minutes and I began just using that for prayer. I'm just laying there, so I might as well pray about things. And one day I'm laying there with this TENS unit on getting some e-stimulation and I started praying for this broken relationship and I'm pouring my heart out to God. I'm still in a lot of pain and hurt because it's our closest friends and I'm asking God to restore the relationship and to soften my heart wherever it's hard, and Josie's and theirs and all that. I'm giving it all to God.
Speaker 2:And then, all of a sudden, I get this picture in my mind. This picture comes to my mind and I'm interpreting this as from God, but it was a picture of me sitting on their front step and I very much sensed Jesus saying to me, as this picture came to mind wait here. And it felt important to me because everything in me wanted to like walk through the front door and try to reason with them, or, like an obnoxious child, ring the doorbell over and over and over until they answer, like everything in me wanted to get into that house to try to reason with them. And I very much sense Jesus just saying wait here, I'm already in there, don't leave. You need to stay open to when they open the door, but you're gonna wait here and you're not to do anything else, okay. So I shared that with Josie and we just committed to like praying God, continue to soften my heart, soften our hearts where there's stuff there, and we trust that you're doing the work in them, in their home, that we can't see and can't control.
Speaker 2:I actually developed a little rhythm, because I'd often see them at drop-off for school, when I was dropping off our kids for school, which was always painful because it's like we used to talk and now it's just like this awkwardness and pain. And so I just began using my walk to and from school with our boys every time to just be praying in my mind. God, would you soften my heart, would you bring about reconciliation? This lasted for about nine months and one day we were dropping our kids off. I had just had foot surgery and I'm sitting in the car while Josie's bringing our boys into school and I'm in the front seat with my crutches and this friend is walking by a car and sees me sitting there with crutches and looks surprised and he actually walks up to the window and I roll down the window. He goes what happened to you? So I explained hey, old hockey injury had to get it repaired. Blah, blah, blah, blah, and I sensed God saying give a test balloon, like float out your heart.
Speaker 2:You've been praying about your heart, so let them know what your heart is. So I just looked at him and we'll call him come up with a name Steve, steve. I just looked at this guy and I said Steve, I love you and I want you to know that and I'd love for things to be made right between us. And that's all I said. And he got a little bit uncomfortable and I said I just want you to know my heart, I love you. And then that was it. He walked away and I felt an invitation from God to follow up with a text to cast some vision for what that meant. So I followed up with a text and just said hey, it really meant a lot that you stopped and asked I want to reiterate that I really love you both and I want to be made right with you. If you'd ever be open to having a conversation, can we get together and just talk about it? I think I have some stuff to own. So I let out with that, like I probably have some stuff to own, and he took me up on it. It took him about a week and a half to get back to me, but finally he said yeah, it's been kind of haunting me. I think we should get together and we did.
Speaker 2:We got together and it was a painful lunch. I had to hear things from his perspective that I didn't know. He heard some things from my perspective he didn't know. Both of us were crying at different times and then, after that conversation, we extended and received forgiveness, reconciliation happened, and then I got a text from his wife. We need to talk too. Same thing Met for coffee, painful, hard, but it ended the same way. And then Josie did the same thing. So my point is to illustrate. I'm not saying I don't want to script my story over everybody, but I want to say that maybe there are some principles to draw on when you want to be reconciled with someone else and they don't want to be. I would just suggest praying for your own heart to stay pure and soft and ask that God would not only be working on their hearts but pave the way to bring about an opportunity for reconciliation and trust God to move.
Speaker 3:It's a really cool story.
Speaker 1:It's like the obsession of thinking about it. You can reframe it in using it as an opportunity. So, like my mind's not going to be able to let this go right now, so I'm going to use it as a continual opportunity to reengage God's presence and a continual invitation into prayer for the other person and for you. So I see it as a really healthy spiritual reframing in a positive way of saying I'm obsessed with this. This does show how much this does show how much I want it and, God, I need your help to sustain me in a season where I'm waiting for it. And all of that just increases dependency on God. Rhythms of continual prayer, All that softens your heart and keeps you really open to what he's doing. I also get the picture of the prodigal son story.
Speaker 1:Jesus tells waiting on the step. He didn't. The father didn't run. When he was laying in the pig pen he waited. He was waiting until it was initiated. And when he saw him coming down the road, right, they say he ran to meet him Like he was initiated. Yeah, and when he saw him coming down the road, right, they say he ran to meet him Like he was eagerly waiting. So it's this picture that the father clearly already forgiven and was ready for reconciliation, and the second that there was an open door. He ran to meet him.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's a cool picture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and maybe to go to the other example that I shared of someone that I there's a broken relationship there and there doesn't seem to be the possibility of reconciliation. It's the same thing for me. It's I want. I want to have a clean heart. So I asked God to keep my heart soft, keep it clean. I pray for reconciliation, but the big difference with this one is that the other person would have to show that they're wanting to meet in reality, Right, so there's some guardrails in place, and I think that brings us to a really important question, which is almost like reverse it for a moment. You know what do you do if someone else wants to re-engage relationally with you after reconciliation, but you don't.
Speaker 3:So it feels like we're talking about how to recalibrate relationship. The word that comes to my mind here is like you're recalibrating I like that right. So like to some extent, anytime you have a new relationship, you meet someone at work, or you meet someone in your community or whatever. I think you're calibrating. What kind of relationship do I want?
Speaker 2:with this person.
Speaker 3:Do they seem safe? Do they drain my energy? Or are they life-giving to me? Like how? How much do I want to invest and and and um, and grow into like a deep relationship with this person, and how much do I maybe just want to stay on the surface? And so to me it seems like once there's been an event that causes some hurt and requires some forgiveness, you're kind of recalibrating, like you're. You're rethinking through. What does this now look like in light of the event that hurt me? And I think that that's going to be again. That's going to be a difficult question, it's going to take work and it may require some boundaries.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really like what you're saying, that word recalibration and I think that requires getting clear, first and foremost, about what I want and what I don't want, and what I'm willing to do and what I'm not willing to do, and then that informs boundaries, which is what you're naming, and I really like that phrase.
Speaker 2:That clarity is kindness, like being clear with someone else. When you're doing that dance of recalibration, especially with a preexisting relationship, there can be expectations or assumptions being made about what we're returning to, and so this work of getting clear yourself about what you're wanting to do and not willing to do, and so on and so forth, is a really important step that we can't skip. That then informs the boundaries and expectation setting we need to do in that relationship. And so I was thinking about this like yes, yes to boundaries based on what I want and don't want, what I'm willing and not willing to do. Maybe it'd be helpful to talk through some categories of boundaries that might be worth considering. Yeah, so, for instance, communication there might be an expectation that the other person has that we just jump into communicating and texting all the time and so on and so forth right, but you might want to communicate differently or a very minimal communication moving forward, you know what I mean Absolutely.
Speaker 2:What might that sound like? I imagine it's something like I wish you well, but I won't be continuing with regular contact and I'd ask if you not reach out to me, or something like that. We just dealt with this recently. We have someone who texted you, me and Josiah a bunch of really long videos, and this person has a history of sending sort of like long monologues and they're not helpful because they don't allow for reciprocal dialogue, and unfortunately we had to respond that way, by saying, hey, this isn't the way we prefer to communicate, and here's why.
Speaker 3:Right, right. Yeah, we weren't saying no communication, but we were putting putting a boundary around the the way we communicate. Yeah, yeah, that feels like a good one.
Speaker 2:What else? Yeah, maybe emotional boundaries. Especially if you were really close to someone. There might be this expectation that you jump right into reopening the vulnerable parts of yourself with this person again, or maybe sharing details of how you're doing or how your family's doing or whatever, and you may say, hey, that's not something I'm wanting to do, or it's too soon for that. There may be a trust building season before I reopen up emotionally to you. So that might sound something like I'm going to be honest with you. I'm not at a place where I'm willing to engage how we used to. I have forgiven you, but I'm not wanting to return to the emotional closeness that we had before, at least not right now.
Speaker 2:I think of time and space boundaries. You might have had a relationship where you hung out all the time or you shared a lot of space together, and now you need to figure out well, what does it look like to navigate, how much time or exposure we have to one another, and what if they're part of your family, for instance, and you have an upcoming gathering at Christmas time or whatever it might be? It might be the case that you have to do some expectation setting or boundary work on the front end to let them know what you're willing and not willing to do, something like hey, I'm planning to come to this event for a short time, but I'm going to head out early, so that they know or just wanted to set the expectation ahead of time that I'm choosing to spend less time in spaces that are draining for me right now.
Speaker 2:I think access is the biggest one. The biggest boundary when someone else wants relationship with you and you're not at that same place, or not at that same place yet is how much access are you giving to them of yourself?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. I want to highlight two really important pieces of what you just said, If I can, the first being first take the time to reflect on what it is that you need and where you are Like it's really important to sit back and go like, okay, where, how am I reorienting to this relationship and what do I need? That reflection is critical. Don't expect yourself just to figure it out in the moment when you bump into them. The second piece, and probably the most important I think, is clearly communicating.
Speaker 3:How many times have you seen it play out where there's two people in conflict and maybe they sort of reconcile and then they figure out what they need but they're not actually communicating it, and then the other person is left kind of guessing, yes, and then the other person is left kind of guessing, and even in some cases it becomes kind of like a power struggle, Like, oh, I'm just gonna let you continue to try to talk to me and I'm gonna kind of give you the cold shoulder or ghost you or make you figure out where I'm at. Maybe I'm in a different place tomorrow and yada, yada. So I think it's really important to just go hey, here's where I'm at.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, isn't kind at all If you know that there's baked in assumptions or expectations and neither of you are communicating about them, and now you're playing games to try to figure that out. That is not kind or respectful. And so what occurred to me as we were talking about boundaries, here is what we talked about in our emotional maturity series, which is this is about self-differentiation, this is about defining yourself and being connected in light of that. So you're defining here's what I want, here's what. So you're defining here's what I want, here's what I'm willing to do, here's what I'm not willing to do, and here's what that means in terms of staying connected to you. Here's the level of connection that I'm willing to have.
Speaker 3:Yes, we did a whole episode on that.
Speaker 2:And I like what you said. If you are trying to figure that out in real time, while staying connected to the other person, you're probably not defining yourself very well and you're going to probably maybe have to step into reverse a little bit. So I do think there's a sequence here, or a progression, where you start with doing some work yourself to go what do I want, what am I willing and willing, not willing to do, and then maybe initiating some conversations, and some of them might be negotiable, depending on the health of the relationship or the emotional safety that's still there or not.
Speaker 3:And what the other person needs.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:There might be some reciprocity.
Speaker 2:there is what I mean. Like you might be able to say okay, yeah, I'll give you space because I see that you need that, and you might, in the course of dialogue, discover what each other needs and be able to honor each other by granting that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, and it might change again over time. You're recalibrating, you're sort of taking one step forward, maybe staying there for a while, and then maybe it's another step forward and another maybe not.
Speaker 2:Yep, All right. Well, let's jump into it's practice time.
Speaker 3:Practice podcast there we go?
Speaker 2:Josiah just left, but he was going to talk about this first practice and it's building on what we just discussed. So what do you do if you have a broken relationship and you want to be open to reconciliation? Here are some practices for you. The first practice is to clarify what you want, moving forward everything we just got done talking about, I would really encourage you to sit in God's presence and to pray about not just what you want and are willing to do, but what God might want you to do. Not my will, but your will be done. I find that Psalm 139 is a great prayer of examination. Search me and know me, o God. Test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there's any offensive way in me. This is about laying yourself open to God's presence, allowing him to examine you, soften your heart and then, in light of that, getting clear on what you want, what you're willing and not willing to do.
Speaker 3:Yes, believe it or not, we don't always have perfect insight into exactly what's going on internally, so I put myself first.
Speaker 2:Okay, you used we language so well.
Speaker 3:I'd like to think I'm not the only one.
Speaker 2:No, I'm with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good one. Practice Another practice I would say we also just touched on initiate a conversation around boundaries that's rooted in truth. I know boundaries conversations can often be challenging and even uncomfortable. I think a lot of us just don't have reps in this, and so maybe we try and we come across too strong or we avoid it because we're scared of conflict or scared of hurting someone's feelings or we don't want to be perceived as mean. But these conversations are crucial and they're honest, right.
Speaker 3:Being honest Isn't the same thing as being mean. You can be honest and be mean, um, but just being honest, calibrating both grace and truth is is foundational for these types of conversations. So, again, start by getting honest with yourself. What are you true? What are you truly okay with? What feels like a violation? All of that, everything that you just talked about, and then share that honesty with the other person.
Speaker 3:Make sure you're communicating your boundaries clearly and directly, without manipulation or passive aggressiveness. You can say things like hey, rather than telling someone you always call me so late, don't call me so late anymore, maybe try saying hey, I need to set a boundary around phone calls after 9 pm because I need time to wind down. Or, rather than saying hey, I can't believe you expect me to do this, say I'm feeling overwhelmed and I'm not able to take this on right now. Just practice using I statements and having grace in how you communicate the boundaries that you need as you move forward. I think that I statements are really important and can help avoid putting the other person on the defensive.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? Yeah, boundaries are delivered best when you're naming truth about yourself rather than truth about the other person.
Speaker 3:Yes, and we did an episode on boundaries as well. Yeah, help flush that out.
Speaker 2:That's right. And then, finally, I would just say look for signs of ownership and trustworthiness. Again, reconciliation requires both people and when trust has been broken, it only can be regained in a healthy way through consistent behavior over time, over time. So if someone has violated your trust, I would just encourage you don't rush right back into a fully trusting relationship with that person. Feel free to take it slow and watch and see how they relate to you over time and if they're wanting to really work on the relationship and they're wanting to be healthy, well they'll do the work and, over time, demonstrate that they're trustworthy and then you can begin to trust them with more and more.
Speaker 2:But I often see people, in the name of reconciliation, jumping right back into a trusting relationship without doing the full work, and it just leads to more hurt in the future. So I wanna say, hey, take it slow, be wise about this. Trust is earned through consistent behavior over time and you don't need to trust people who haven't demonstrated that they're worthy of your trust. That's unwise and will probably result in hurt.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a good word.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, thanks for listening today. In our next episode, we're going to really close out this series on forgiveness by talking about a concept named kingdom. We call it kingdom Aikido. Jesus doesn't just call us to forgive or reconcile. Perhaps the ultimate challenge is that we're to love our enemies. So in our next episode we're going to talk about what this actually looks like. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 3:Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. Looks like We'll see you next time and, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
