Praxis
Praxis
Choosing to Forgive
What does it actually look like to forgive someone who's hurt you deeply? After acknowledging the pain and choosing to move toward forgiveness, how do you actually release the debt and free yourself from resentment?
In this episode, we dive into the mechanics of forgiveness – the practical steps of extending forgiveness to others even when our emotions haven't caught up with our decision. We unpack the difference between verbally declaring forgiveness and truly embodying it through our actions. While saying "I forgive you" matters, what follows matters more.
Through personal stories – including Mac's struggle to forgive Josie for breaking his precious vintage Coleman lantern – we illustrate how forgiveness often involves an internal battle between what we know is right and what our emotions are demanding. We share practical exercises for releasing wrongdoing, from writing letters of forgiveness to symbolic acts like releasing hurts down an imaginary river.
The benefits of forgiveness extend far beyond spiritual alignment. Research increasingly shows that holding onto bitterness keeps our bodies in chronic stress, while forgiveness brings mental, emotional, and physical healing. When we forgive, we not only free ourselves but potentially inspire others around us to do the same.
Ready to experience the freedom that comes from genuinely forgiving others? Listen now, and take your next step toward embodying the forgiveness Jesus modeled for us.
Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. We are in a series right now on the topic of forgiveness. Few topics are more central to the Christian faith. Through Jesus, god offers us forgiveness and invites us into restored relationship.
Katie:It's easy for us to rejoice in God's gift of forgiveness, yet we have a really hard time practicing forgiveness ourselves. Rather than embracing the freedom and transformation that can come with forgiveness, including the possibility of a reconciled relationship, we get stuck in bitterness and resentment, to our own detriment. So in this series, we're talking about how to practice and embody the forgiveness that Jesus invites and challenges us to live into. Whether it's learning how to receive God's forgiveness, or asking others to forgive you, or extending forgiveness to others, our hope and prayer is that you'd sense God inviting you deeper into practicing the way of Jesus with us. Today we want to talk about how to make the conscious choice to forgive someone and then actually do so. So that's where we're headed today. Let's get into it.
Josiah:Welcome everybody. My name is Josiah,
Katie:I'm Katie
Mac:and it's Mac right here.
Josiah:It's great to be back in this room with you guys.
Mac:Yeah, it's good to be with you guys.
Josiah:Nice to see everybody and get after it again as we get started. Today I had a question, and this got sparked by a recent staff meeting we had. But name a song or a band that you're ashamed to admit you still enjoy listening to.
Katie:That's a good one.
Josiah:I can start.
Katie:Go for it.
Josiah:I really like old Colby Calait songs. Oh good, I don't know why I connected with it so much when I was I don't know probably like at the end of high school, post high school.
Katie:Is that the one that's like start up my toes, yeah, but that's.
Josiah:She has other ones besides that.
Katie:You don't want me to sing.
Josiah:She has other ones besides bubbly, but I don't know why. It just gives me all the feels and you know it's not something I'm going to blast in the car all the time but or tell everybody that I listened to. But anytime I hear an old Colby Clay song I definitely like find myself singing it and feel good.
Katie:That's awesome. Um man, if I think about when I'm on my Peloton, there's probably a lot of them. So I love like pink, a lot of some Alanis Morissette anything, nineties, the.
Josiah:Peloton has like, the Peloton has like-.
Katie:Old school pink. Yeah, old school pink. Yeah, I love pink when I'm on the bike. Goo Goo Dolls. I'm not really ashamed of them. Alex says I should be.
Josiah:I really like the Goo Goo Dolls and Hootie and the Blowfish Ashamed of the Goo Goo Dolls.
Katie:No way, matchbox 20. That's funny.
Mac:That's funny I like Matchbox 20. My sister gave me a Matchbox 20 CD when I was in high school. I was like, just trust me.
Josiah:That's what she said to me.
Katie:She was like just trust me.
Mac:And did it work? I mean, I generally have like my sister's preferences. I hold them in high regard so I got into it for a little bit, but it wasn't like, oh, this is my all-time new favorite artist or anything.
Katie:Yeah, I still like that Hanson Mbop Do you remember Mbop that? Came on the other day. I like that song.
Mac:Really, yeah, okay, I've got a long list. What about you, mac? Yeah, I don't know if I'm ashamed of this, but I still enjoy listening to Nirvana sometimes, oh, okay.
Josiah:Yeah.
Mac:Yeah, you don't know, but I I don't know. I tend to listen to a wide variety of music. I just don't love country music, not a big fan. Yeah, so sorry for all of you country fans out there nothing against you I honor your preference. It's just not my favorite genre.
Josiah:I had uh I used to tease. I should say that I I've always had probably a negative view of people going to see Legacy X, so like has been bands that are still touring and I'm like why, are they still going around and I Nickelback headlined Country. Thunder and I had the chance to go to it and you bought a t-shirt, didn't you?
Josiah:I'm telling you that I had such an awesome experience because I knew all the songs and it's not like it's not like they were ever my favorite band, but it was so fun and everybody everybody was just like super into it and it was like hey, we know this is lame, but we still like it. It's like Nickelback and Creed just like go away. It was actually really refreshing and I ended up buying a t-shirt, a Nickelback t-shirt.
Mac:I loved it yeah, I would say I would have a lot of embarrassment if I told you some of the musical artists like Christian musical artists that I grew up listening to that I really enjoyed.
Josiah:So, yeah, enjoyed.
Mac:Well, I would say, if you put on like DC Talks Jesus, freak album.
Josiah:I could still listen to the whole thing and enjoy it, but it's not something I could repeat more than once a year. You know what I mean.
Mac:But there are a lot of bands that I thought in that season of my life that music really wasn't even that great and I'm kind of embarrassed that I liked it you enjoy it for nostalgic purposes only you know what's interesting?
Josiah:you mentioned Hanson and Mbop. I can't do it anymore and this happened post high school. We had a fundraiser that happened in our high school and the fundraiser was called stop the bop and they would play mbop from a half an hour before school, in between every class and during all the lunches on repeat, and after school for a half an hour until we raised enough money oh my god, whose idea was this? I don't know, that's like I forgot it's torture, yeah so right away.
Josiah:It was kind of fun. Everybody was like it was kind of fun to watch how it happened, you know it's like everybody's like you know, dancing around on the hallway pretending they love it. A couple days in they're still. They're kind of teasing it and then it kind of like it kind of like just blended into the background, but then I think people just started getting really irritated.
Mac:Yeah, it's like the pastor standing in front is like nobody's leaving until we get this amount of money coming in.
Josiah:It's ridiculous To a bunch of kids, yeah, an embargo leaving until we get this amount of money coming in.
Mac:It's ridiculous To a bunch of kids.
Josiah:Yeah. An embargo, yeah, it was a fun idea and I think they ended up pulling it down. Before that, we raised money, because there was just these buckets everywhere.
Katie:I feel like that's one of those ideas that wouldn't fly today.
Josiah:I don't know, but I'll tell you what it ruined the song for me.
Mac:Well, speaking of mbopping and stopping the bops, we're in a series on forgiveness right now. Stop the bop.
Josiah:That's what we're going to call the series from now on, stop the bop.
Mac:Now, one of the things we've been doing which I've really enjoyed over the last few episodes, with kind of the goal of encouraging or inspiring or imagining what forgiveness can look like, is we've been doing a feature story of forgiveness and some of them have been really powerful. We talked about Ruby Bridges, corrie, ten Boom. Last time I shared the story of the Amish community at the Nickel Mine School and it'd be fun to do another one. So, katie, I know you've you wanted to share a little bit about Nelson Mandela.
Katie:Do you?
Mac:want to do, you want to dive into that?
Katie:Yeah, yeah. So maybe about a year or so ago, alex and I watched a movie on Nelson Mandela and, um, I don't think he's a Christian as far as I know. So maybe he is, I just don't know. But, all that to say, I'm not holding him up as like a perfect embodiment of all things Christian values, but his story really struck me because it had some powerful lessons in forgiveness and reconciliation. So yeah, nelson Mandela was a black man who lived under apartheid in South Africa in the mid 20th century.
Katie:Apartheid was a system of just institutionalized racial segregation. So black South Africans were denied the right to vote, they were forced to live in separate areas, they were even, like, forcibly removed from their homes and sent to, like, overcrowded camps. They were on the receiving end of terrible brutality and violence at the hands of the government. It was really, really bad. And so there were protesters. There was a peaceful resistance movement that started peaceful. As the massacres continued and it got worse and worse, they ended up using, I think, violence without trying to kill people, whatever. It started out as a peaceful protest.
Katie:Nelson Mandela was a leader in that resistance movement. He ended up being arrested in 1962 because of his involvement with the resistance movement. And then he spent 27 years in prison where he was subject to forced labor, just brutal conditions. He was beaten, abused physically, psychologically, threatened with violence and death if he didn't comply like conditions that would be really unthinkable for any of us. And then, 27 years later, he's released and they admit they didn't have a basis to arrest him.
Katie:And when he's released, rather than calling for retribution or coming out bitter or vengeful, he commits himself to fighting for reconciliation. And four years later, after being released, he becomes South Africa's first black president and when it's time for his inauguration, he invites former jailers to attend his inauguration as a gesture of inclusion and reconciliation. He also went on to work with Desmond Tutu's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which, if you're familiar with that, they brought together victims and oppressors under that system of apartheid and facilitated dialogue that was rooted in truth-telling and forgiveness rather than in punishment or prison time. So that was really powerful and I think the movie, the story of his life and how he embodied this reconciliation to me was just a really powerful example of what it looks like to do the internal work of forgiveness and how that can have massive, not only internal consequences, but start like this social movement. He absorbed injustice and refused to return hate, which is what typically would have been the case, and because of it, a really powerful movement grew out of that. That's now like a big part of history.
Mac:Yeah, and I think one piece of that story, what it unlocks for me is that he was able to hold on to fighting for justice and improvement while also elevating reconciliation. Those weren't seen as opposite or incompatible. Rather, he was able to do both. I'm going to continue to work for change in my culture and in my country by advocating for justice and righteousness, while at the same time, holding out a hand even to those who abused me in jail, to be reconciled and to be part of this restored new vision for how we can operate as a society. I think that's really beautiful.
Katie:Yeah, that's true.
Mac:Well, that's a great story, Katie, and thanks for bringing it. We are in the series on forgiveness and we're just kind of naming this tension that, on the one hand, we know that God forgives us and we know that forgiveness is a really high value for God, but then, on the other hand, we really struggle with it. We often struggle to forgive others, we struggle to forget ourselves, and so we've just been doing a deep dive into all the different facets that go into forgiveness. Now, we've covered a lot of big topics so far, and I'm going to review these because number one it's easy to forget, our memories leak, and so even in doing this quick review, it might be helpful for you. But the other thing is that these really do build on each other, so we're kind of presenting this in a little bit of a linear way on purpose. So here's a quick summary of where we've been. We started by distinguishing between what forgiveness is and what it is not, and the reason for this is because there's a lot of confusion about what forgiveness is, and one of the reasons why we get stuck in unforgiveness is that we confuse it for something it's not. So what we're resisting isn't actually forgiveness, but we're resisting something other than forgiveness. So having a clear definition of forgiveness is really important, and we're going to return to that today.
Mac:The second thing we covered was we talked about the cycle of enemy making, or what we also called the flywheel of unforgiveness, and you can check out our show notes where we have a diagram of it. But the basic idea is that when someone wrongs us and we begin to ruminate on that wrong, it hardens our heart towards the other person. Then we treat them as less than a human being, we de-imagi-o-de them, we start viewing them as an enemy or an other and then, finally, we seek revenge, which often leaks out with varying degrees of intensity and harm. Then we talked about the third episode. We talked about how to get out of the cycle of enemy making, and it was very simple Instead of viewing the wrongdoer as an enemy, you simply pivot and begin to look at the person of Jesus, who forgave his enemies on the cross and said Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. And then the last episode.
Mac:We named the first major step, once you've chosen to move towards forgiveness, which is, instead of brushing aside the wrongdoing, to actually name the truth of what happened, to write out the impact that it had on you and lament it, grieve it in Jesus's presence, while remaining open to his healing. So that's what we've covered so far, and today we're going to take one more step. After you've named the hurt and grieved it and lamented it, what does it actually look like then to extend forgiveness? When you decide you're going to forgive someone else, what does this actually involve? So today we're going to unpack the mechanics of forgiveness and I'm hoping also that, just as kind of like a little note, I'm hoping we can spend some time talking about, once we've forgiven, the impact that has on us and, potentially, the other person when we've chosen to forgive. How's that sound?
Katie:Yeah, sounds good. Sounds like today will be the practice episode. We've had practices embodied to each of these episodes, right?
Mac:Yes.
Katie:Today is kind of like the big practice. Now we're doing it.
Mac:Yeah, that's right. And maybe to get us started, I want to review the definition we landed on in that first episode many, many moons ago, because this actually sets the stage for how we're actually going to encourage you to engage it. In other words, like the components of this definition are the very steps you're going to take to when you choose to forgive. So here was the definition that we put together. Forgiveness is the intentional process of choosing to no longer count another person's sin or wrongdoing against them. It is the cancellation of a debt owed without the need for payment, to open up the door to the possibility of reconciliation. And that's inspired by 2 Corinthians, chapter 5, where we're called to be ministers of reconciliation or ambassadors of reconciliation. So let's start to use this definition to break down, once you've made the choice I'm going to forgive, what does that actually look like? How do we do this?
Josiah:Yeah Well, you have to start with the notion that forgiveness is a choice, and I would say that I don't know if everybody experiences forgiveness this way.
Josiah:Often we are caught up in the emotional climate of hurt and pain, or pride, or stubbornness and resistance.
Josiah:I even think about this when you know, if we're the to name that, although it's good to name the impact emotionally and physically and psychologically, all of these things at the end of the day, the ability to choose lies with us, and once you fix your eyes on Jesus and you've made the decision to move towards forgiveness, you've lamented the impact. All that's great. Now it's time to actually do it, and the reason why it's so important is because choosing your response in the process of pain is your reclaiming of your agency. So when someone wrongs you, there's an element of your own agency, of what you get to do and decide, which is stolen from you, and you're left with a hurt or a wound, and sometimes these are very large ones that take a lifetime to overcome. Other times they're small, but we often remain stuck in those and the ability to choose is us saying no, I am the one who's going to determine if I move forward or not. The other person does not get to determine.
Mac:I think you're naming something really important, if we could just pause. There's a discontinuity, or sometimes a lack of alignment, between the emotive part of forgiveness and the cognitive part of forgiveness. So the emotions might be saying one thing pain hurt, right. But you're saying, hey, what we're talking? The choice to forgive requires your volition overriding those feelings.
Josiah:Yeah, and the process of doing that is important. That's why we've named. It's taken this many episodes to get here, because just waking up and saying I can ignore my emotional state in order to so that I can forgive We've talked about that.
Mac:That's not we're not spiritual bypassing or doing any of that.
Josiah:We're not going to be dismissive about the impact it had, but at the end of the day, the forgiveness lies with our will and not necessarily with our emotions, and it's very important to not conflate the two as the same thing. I found a quote from Corrie Ten Boom. Remember that she was one of our feature forgiveness stories. She famously said that forgiveness is an act of the will and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart. She's trying to name this difference, say that again, because that's rich.
Josiah:Forgiveness is an act of the will, and the will can function regardless of the temperature of the heart.
Mac:That reminds me of another quote that I can't remember who said it, but it's become something we say somewhat frequently on our staff that feelings make lousy leaders but excellent mirrors. So it's just the idea that feelings can be impulsive and misleading. They can keep you stuck, they can be reactive, and when we let them drive us they can be reactive, and when we let them drive us, we're often not making our most principled choices or decisions. Right, yeah, but I also liked what you said. There's a reason why we're talking about volition now. We, just in the last episode, spent so much time essentially honoring our emotions and the impact that this hurt or pain had on us, but that doesn't get the last word right. The emotions give us access. They function as a mirror to show us the hurt and pain that this wrongdoing caused me, and we are going to look at the mirror and we are going to lament its impact. You've done that now. You've honored your emotions, you've named the wrongdoing, and now it's time to exercise some agency despite that.
Josiah:Yeah, I've heard it put that the feelings are like the gauges and the indicators on the car, but they're great for indicating that something's wrong or making sure that everything's tuned up properly the way it should be. Um, but it's not necessary. Uh, it would be unnecessary to let feelings be in the driver's seat and turning the wheel. Yes, I like that. So, and and I, uh, I want to be careful to not to not add a layer of shame onto feeling strongly within the process of forgiveness. It's important to name, as we've said, the impact someone had, something had, on you, and naming that is actually really important. We don't want to bypass it or add shame onto the fact that you're feeling like you don't want to forgive someone, because that's a very natural part of the process. We're just trying to name that.
Mac:We need to have a mental model of separating how we feel within the process of forgiveness and our ability to choose to forgive, and this dovetails really well on like our emotional EQ podcast series because, like that was a key, a key component of emotional maturity is not only being attuned to yourself, what you're feeling, but then being able to show up like self-regulate show up either because of that feeling or despite that feeling, in ways that are appropriate.
Mac:So this is just kind of a mark of maturity. You know, yeah, I wonder for you guys we're talking about, hey, you might be feeling one thing and you're going to have to choose. Despite that, when it comes to forgiveness, I just wonder, have you experienced that before, specifically with someone that you know you're supposed to forgive? And what was that internal dialogue like for you when you're going, ah, I'm feeling this, but I know that the right thing to do is to forgive. You know what I mean.
Katie:Yeah, yeah, I have a story I could share and it's been quite a few years, um, so some of the details are fuzzy, but I, um, I remember having a situation with a friend who thought I said something to hurt them. They had been told by someone else that I said something right. So we all know how that goes, where it gets kind of gets mischaracterized through the telephone game and, rather than approaching me about it, she gave me the silent treatment and we were on vacation together, so like close proximity, and I'm given the silent treatment for like two or three days. I think it was like three days at the end and I had tried to initiate conversation multiple times within that and it didn't go anywhere.
Katie:And I don't know about you guys, I hate the silent treatment. Like I just I hate it. I hate being on the receiving end of it. I don't feel like it's a fair move relationally. Like man, I get really frustrated because I'm someone who likes to talk through things and it just it kind of feels like a power struggle to me, like I just I have lots of thoughts, okay, so in this moment I've gotten three days Next episode.
Josiah:Yeah, next episode.
Katie:I've gotten three days to just sit and like this is really unfair, like I just kind of I don't know, you know just kind of fester in those feelings of how unfair this was to me. I don't know about you guys, but it's hard enough to forgive someone when they aren't asking for it. I feel like it's even harder when they feel like you've done something wrong. So here I was, in this situation, feeling like I was hurt, and I remember feeling like, okay, I need to forgive her, but that is so not what I want to do, because not only is she not asking for it, but she's actually thinking I did something wrong. So it was just a whole mess of emotions. But I do remember.
Katie:I do remember doing the work of forgiveness in that situation, and I did it before we were even able to talk because I wasn't given the opportunity to talk to her, and so so I did the hard work of forgiveness and I remember that when we did then finally come together, what it did was it helped me not hyper-focus on the ways that I felt like I had been wronged, which would have been my default.
Katie:It would have been my default to only go into the conversation being like how did you do this to me?
Katie:Sometimes, when there is the back and forth like you mentioned, let's be honest, a lot of times when we're in conflict, I think there's some mutual responsibility and I know for me it can be really easy to hyper-focus on the ways that I've been hurt and I think in that situation, choosing forgiveness towards her allowed me then to to have that dialogue. Once we got there with grace and truth like name the truth of here's how you hurt me. This wasn't okay, this wasn't okay for you to treat me this way and it really hurt me but then also to extend grace and be willing to own, maybe where I had something to own, and try to move towards reconciliation. I'm sure I didn't do it perfectly, but I remember, looking back and going, I felt like I was able to embody the type of posture that I wanted to embody in that conversation because I did some of that internal work Before she was even asking for it, like before she had done anything and that internal work I hear you saying was not free of complication.
Mac:It was hard to get there right. I mean, we want to normalize that, that when your emotions are saying one thing and you know your volition needs to override that, it's hard. I remember this was maybe four or five years ago in the fall we were going to take our kids on a camping trip and pull them out of school early and kind of make it a fun weekend. We were going to go to Devil's Lake and leading up to the camping trip my parents were like you know, we have all this camping stuff. They used to camp a lot when they were younger but haven't used it in years. They're like, hey, do you want anything? And I'm like, yeah, like vintage camping gear will be awesome, you know. And so they gave us this old camping stove and then this lantern, like an old vintage Coleman lantern, and I remember trying to get it to work. It was like this long couple-week process of like it's not working.
Josiah:They're finicky.
Mac:Yeah, they're finicky.
Mac:And then I had to get some like just some new pieces and finally I got it working with my dad's help and we were ready for the trip.
Mac:So the night before we leave, all of our camping gear is kind of like in the basement and we're like let's load up the car so tomorrow we can just go. We both had some things to do that we can jump in the car, get our kids and go, and so I'm out on like the driveway arranging these all the bags and gear as it comes out, so it all fits in our van and josie and the kids are like bringing things to the door for me. And at one point I'm making a trip back to the house to get the next bag or whatever piece of gear and I hear a loud noise and I'm like, oh, what was that? So I go inside and I'm at the top of our stairs looking down the stairs and josie is standing at the bottom of the stairs in our basement and the lantern is on the floor with glass everywhere shattered shattered, yeah, shattered your precious lantern, my precious lantern and her response was she goes.
Mac:I am so sorry. And I looked at her and I go, I can't right now. And I walked into the living room Because I had spent like weeks trying to get this thing working and I remember distinctly, like sitting on the coffee room table like fuming with frustration, like I have a few weeks now invested into this vintage lamp and now it's on the floor in a million pieces and kind of wrestling through, like she apologized right away. There was no like deflection or blame. She didn't go. Hey, the dog nudged me. Like it was none of that. She apologized right away. There was no deflection or blame, she didn't go. Hey, the dog nudged me. It was none of that. She owned it right away. And it took me a good 20 minutes to be like, okay, I'm going to calm down and realize there's no fixing this now and I have to accept her apology and extend forgiveness. The good news is we have Sherpers in town.
Katie:I was just going to say you had Sherpers a couple blocks away.
Mac:Yeah, and so I deviated briefly that morning and stopped by and they had a new globe to go over it and I got to use it. So it worked out. It worked out. But I distinctly remember the internal battle of anger, frustration that she had already apologized for, and going but do I really want to grant it to her? You know what I mean, I do. I know that feeling very well. I'm glad that I didn't ruin my marriage over the Coleman lantern.
Josiah:We're all glad for that. It would have been her fault anyway, yeah.
Mac:Oh, that's so good.
Josiah:All right. So we've made the choice to forgive and we're acknowledging that it's a choice, something that's like an act of the will, not necessarily waiting for emotions to be done. I think it's important to name that. You need to make it actionable rather than just in my mind. I'm thinking, okay, I'll forgive him. It needs to be actionable, and I would suggest that the best way to make that actionable is to write it down. So take a journal out and write out your letter of forgiveness. It could be something simple. It could just be a little paragraph, a couple sentences, or maybe just one. I choose to forgive so-and-so for this thing.
Mac:Yeah, get your moleskine. Is that what you said? It's pronounced that way Moleskine.
Josiah:You know, someone told me that, and then someone else said that's ridiculous.
Katie:Yeah, I think that person is wrong.
Josiah:I think they purposely make it hard to pronounce. Who knows?
Katie:Yeah, well, going back to our definition, so we're breaking it down here. Right, we just covered. Forgiveness is a choice. It's something that has to be done with some intentionality. The next part of our definition is that forgiveness is the cancellation of a debt. So forgiveness is like you're canceling a debt without demanding repayment for that. Maybe you made Josie pay for the lantern out of her own piggy bank.
Mac:Oh yeah, I think I did.
Katie:But no, we want to cancel the debt. And there are two parts to this. The first part is verbally declaring forgiveness in some way. So once you've written out, josiah, that you're going to forgive this person, the next step is to actually do so. This is where you actually release them from the wrongdoing, by verbally declaring it, like you're stating it out loud. We have leadership intensives, josiah, you and I are both leading a leadership intensive right now.
Katie:One thing we talk about in those groups is about pronouncing good news over someone. Right, we have a whole step in the process called declare where you're, you're writing down good news and then you're actually saying it. I think it's one thing, that to know the good news that God says about us like I'm a child of God, I'm loved, whatever it's another thing to declare that or have someone else declare that over me in a way that speaks directly to me. I just think there's something powerful that happens when we put words to something. So I think there's a few different ways this could look.
Katie:One could be by praying forgiveness over the other person. We can pray forgiveness over someone or declare it over them without involving them at all. Again, like my story, it doesn't matter where they're at, whether they see that they've hurt you, you don't need them to be involved in them at all. Again, like my story, it doesn't matter where they're at, whether they see that they've hurt you like you don't need them to be involved in this at all. Praying forgiveness over something, over someone, is something that can happen just with you and God, and it can be an opportunity to really just to open up your heart and to ask God to help you forgive them. If you're not there on your own, talking about that volitional aspect of it, it's okay to say, god, I want to forgive them, I'm declaring forgiveness over them, but, man, my heart's not there and can you help me?
Mac:And I think it might be helpful. Even if you're not gonna talk to that person, you can always invite someone in to pray with you, and that can be really powerful to go hey, I'm gonna share with a trusted friend, I'm gonna forgive this person and I'm going to pray forgiveness over them. Would you pray with me? And I just think that's really powerful because then you're almost creating some accountability around the choice you're making. I've made the choice to forgive and they're supporting me as I release this debt, as I cancel it. I still like the journal option a lot, just because everything we've been doing in this series so far is like writing down step by step by step. So, taking what Josiah said, it's a choice, and you write out okay, jesus, I'm going to choose to forgive.
Mac:And then the next step is to write out a prayer of forgiveness for that person, like I forgive you for, let's just say, you had a close friend and they betrayed your trust. I forgive you for betraying my trust. I forgive you for not staying true to our friendship. I forgive you for the wrong and hurtful things you said about me, whatever. And then I like to name the why behind it Because Jesus has forgiven me, me, or because God has already forgiven you, or because this is what God wants me to do. So the first part is I'm forgiving you for A, b, c or D, and then the second part of the sentence is like and here's why, because I'm aligning myself with the good news of Jesus, yeah, so yeah, I think you know these are good starting points to go. Hey, maybe it just involves the verbal proclamation of forgiveness. Could be a prayer, um, it could be journaling or writing it out so you have a record of it that you can return to. You know anything else that you guys can think of?
Josiah:Yeah, I think you can also take it.
Josiah:The next step would be to talk to them. There's often a I shouldn't say often, but sometimes you have the gift of being able to be close enough with this person that you can tell them you forgive them. And to note, this isn't necessary, like we've named, for forgiveness is something you can do on your own, even if this other person isn't willing to hear it, but there's a if it. I think, if at all possible, I would name that talking directly to the person and declaring your forgiveness for them is a is a really significant way that we get to participate in God's redemptive work. We get to communicate our forgiveness and, as a part of that, we actually become sort of this pipeline of God's forgiveness towards them, and I think that's really important. I think it's like I said to name. This doesn't have to happen, um, and it's not required in order for us to forgive someone, but in the process of you forgiving someone, if it's possible and this person is safe enough or we'll be able to hear it, um, telling them could be a really powerful moment.
Mac:Hmm, strikes me that actually all three of these could fit together really well. I mean, maybe it starts with writing it out I'm choosing to forgive, and then you write a prayer of forgiveness, then you pray it out loud, you pray forgiveness over the other person, and then that sets the stage for you actually to initiate a conversation with them, if it's possible and wise. One of the things that I find helpful, especially when people are struggling with that release moment, that actually canceling the debt. I mean that's like giving up. I'm no longer going to hold this against you, I'm canceling it. That can be a tough moment. If we're honest. I'm no longer going to like hold the shattered lantern against you in my marriage. It's not going to do that.
Mac:Big stuff, big stuff. I mean we're talking you know we're talking about lanterns here. Coleman, but over the years I've developed and not all of these are mine but noted some exercises that might be helpful when it comes to like the actual moment of I'm releasing. This One was one that Josie did and invited me into it, so we did it together, but it's like we have a little solo stove that goes on top of like our picnic table during the summer.
Katie:Those are nice.
Mac:Yeah, it's not very big, it was gifted to us and so sometimes, typically towards the end of the week, we'll just light a solo stove and sit out and talk and catch up a little bit. And the exercise was on one. We had some note cards and on one side we named it was the name of the person who had wronged us and on the other side was sort of like what the action that happened? Okay, and we just spent a few minutes talking about here's, here's what happened, here's what they did, here's how it impacted me. So it's kind of like that Most of what happened last episode. And then the moment was and I choose to forgive them, and then you drop that into the fire and it goes away. I like as a representation that you're canceling it. So it's not a you know, burn in hell moment, like you know. It's more of like no, this is a symbolic, like the wrong is disappearing in the flames, it's gone, um, and that that can be powerful when you lean into it. I think another one is just like breath prayer, um, sometimes what I'll do is I'll take a person who has wronged me and I'll just sort of call them to mind while simultaneously doing the breath prayer of father, forgive them for they know not what they do, and just kind of like so you sit with that person in the wrong way done. We'll also like um sort of breathing in and breathing out this prayer over them Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Mac:There's a couple other exercises that have been meaningful to me. One is this sort of imagine yourself on the bank of a river and you're standing on the shore with Jesus and you've got a little raft and imagine just saying Jesus, here was the wrong done to me, here's what happened, here's the impact. You're lamenting it in his presence and then, once you're done doing that, you just take the wrong and you put it on the raft and kick it off into the river and the current takes it away and you can watch it as long as you need, but eventually there's gonna be a moment where it's too far to see anymore or it goes around a turn or whatever. And then finally and I've shared this once before is just imagining standing with that person before Jesus in heaven, that Jesus knows exactly what happens. Even when there's a competing narratives for what transpired, the full truth is going to come out and there's going to be an invitation to move towards each other with forgiveness, and so we're to be agents of heaven.
Mac:Now, right, and so I think there's something powerful that happens when you just imagine that moment right now. It does something to our hearts and to our disposition. Where you go. I'm not gonna wait for that moment. I can be in that moment right now.
Katie:Yeah, I like those practices and what I noticed about each of them. I like that each of them also had a component of truth-telling. Like and what I noticed about each of them. I like that each of them also had a component of truth-telling, like when you're sitting around the fire. At first you're kind of telling the truth of what happened and how you were hurt, and then even the Jesus example at the end, like the truth, comes out, and that's part of the release.
Josiah:And.
Katie:I love that. I think those are really powerful examples of how to sort of like step into this in a more concrete way, like just get out of our heads right. A lot of this work can happen in our heads and to go okay, now I'm going to do something to memorialize taking the step.
Josiah:Yeah, even if it's purely symbolic, there's something about being able to release it physically. Yeah.
Mac:So I'd imagine standing on the shore of Jesus and being like she broke my lantern. Put the lantern on the raft, matt.
Josiah:I picture you sitting and doing this with Josie on the solo stove. She's rubbing your back and being like you can do it, matt.
Katie:You're like I don't know if. I can put this in the fire. I can't let it go. I can't let it go.
Mac:That's so funny. I don't know if that's helpful, but yeah, I think that the actual releasing of the debt can be very tricky, because it is a letting go, it is a cancellation, and sometimes these practices can help bring it to life and enhance that moment. But I would say that forgiving, the verbal proclamation of forgiveness, is not enough. So when we talk about forgiving being the cancellation of debt owed, I think there's a second part that is also essential, that goes beyond the verbal declaration of it, and that is the embodiment of forgiveness with your actions, right? So, yes, we have to verbally declare it by aligning ourselves with God God, I'm going to forgive them, and so on and so forth. But it makes zero sense to forgive someone and then act like they're still in the doghouse. You know what I mean.
Mac:Forgiveness is not just a mental exercise, it's also a behavioral one. So saying I forgive you is important, but now it's time to practice forgiveness by taking steps towards peace and healing. So I feel like one of the key questions that we need to ask when it comes to moving beyond just verbal to embodiment is what does that actually look like? What does it look like, maybe, given this specific person or this specific situation, to embody forgiveness in a way that matches or parallels the declaration of it. So let's just explore, like, what that might look like for you guys when you take the step to go. I'm verbally declaring it. Now I also need to embody it. My actions need to align with that. What might that look like?
Katie:Yeah, yes, I know what. I've been hurt or offended in some way. I can find myself like tempted to complain about the person or talk to other people about them negatively to try to draw them in, whatever. So I think you can choose when you, if you find yourself tempted to complain or speak negatively or gossip about them, you can instead choose to speak a blessing over them Like God, soften their heart, give them peace, or even just say I'm choosing to bless them rather than to curse them.
Katie:I think, having some phrases like that, that you can think or say out loud can be helpful, like that that you can think or say out loud, can be helpful.
Mac:Yeah, as I was thinking about this, I was thinking that there's kind of like two categories. One is things you need to stop doing Like if you actually forgive this person, it's inappropriate because it contradicts the forgiveness you declared, and a lot of these go back to the cycle of enemy making. So one embodiment of forgiveness is that you just stop rehearsing the grievance, you stop ruminating on it and going over and over. I'm not saying you could never vent about its impact again, but for the most part you're done kind of replaying the wrong over and over and over and ruminating on it, because we know that that leads to a hard heart.
Katie:Yeah, and I really can get stuck there.
Mac:I think all of us can. But I'm saying, hey, one practical outworking of forgiveness is that that comes to an end. You're no longer dwelling on that in the same way. Another one might be and you were hovering over this, katie is that at some point in the enemy-making cycle we start to take revenge, and maybe a more mild form of that is like gossip or slander or whatever. There's a spectrum of intensity and harm. But I think that one evidence that you're embodying forgiveness is that that revenge mechanism is turned off. You're no longer doing that. You're committed to choose something different.
Mac:I think affirming their identity is one of those pieces, because the enemy-making cycle is partly I've dehumanized them, I've turned them into an other. So a positive practice is to say, hey, look, I'm gonna affirm their value and worth, that this is a person who's created in God's image, they're someone that Jesus died for, and so on and so forth, which is what you were sort of hovering over, yeah, you know. One other thing is, I think, simply extending kindness to that individual to the degree you have an opportunity. I've had being a pastor in the same community for 17 years now. It's inevitable. You're gonna have some relational fallout along the way, and it's always interesting to run into those people in the community once they've left or once your relationship has ended.
Mac:And I think one sign that I've genuinely forgiven the other person is that I treat them as a human being by extending them a kind and warm greeting. You're a human being in my presence, you're not to be ignored. You are worthy of kindness and respect, and I'll just say there's some in that. I've had a fallout. When I see them, they put their eyes down, they kind of go to that ghosting mechanism and I'm like okay, well that they haven't, for I don't feel for whatever took place, if they feel like they I've done something wrong, well, they clearly haven't forgiven me because they can't even look at me. You know what I mean. So even if they said they have, well, why aren't we able to like honor?
Josiah:each other's humanity in this moment. You get what I'm saying. Yeah, what I hear you two saying is that, in order to embody forgiveness, you're probably going to have to have a plan.
Josiah:Because, although your heart most likely has softened, the climate in which that wrong happened is still, you're still swimming in it. Yes, so there's going to be opportunities to sort of go back on your word that you did forgive in that sense. And so, in order to embody forgiveness like that, you're going to have to have a plan on how you're going to do it. Forgiveness like that, you're going to have to have a plan on how you're going to do it and and it can be proactive, like I'm going to do this no matter what, or a commitment to stop doing something when it comes back up things like that. But that seems really important.
Mac:Yeah, yeah, you've got to live it out. We've all been in that moment where you've got a child, two kids who have been fighting, and you kind of do the what you experienced growing up, josiah, like the forced apology, but then behavior doesn't change and you realize, oh, it was insincere. That's what I'm trying to rescue our listeners from is going okay, I've done all this work to verbally declare forgiveness, but in fact I haven't forgiven and it's leaking out sideways because my actions still embody a lack of forgiveness. It's wise to come up with a plan to go. What is this actually? If I've forgiven this person, what would that look like now?
Katie:yeah, yeah, and I love like the breath prayers or having like a phrase or statement or prayer of some sort that it's readily on hand. You can write it on post-it now and put it in your mirror or something, so that when you cut your mind going back to the rumination or when you find yourself kind of falling back into those old patterns, you can grasp for it easily.
Josiah:Yeah, yeah, and I think this. I think it's important to remember that forgiveness is a process, yes, and we've taken multiple episodes to bring us through forgiveness. Like it's sort of like a road you walk down. Forgiveness like it's sort of like a road you walk down and although it's really nice when you have a cathartic release of forgiveness and it leads to an instantaneous reconciliation and everything is flowers, that's really nice and I hope and I pray that for everybody, but the reality is most of the situations in which we choose to forgive someone, that's not going to happen.
Josiah:We might have a really significant personal experience where we let go of things that other people have wronged us for and we feel a release and we have a refreshed sense of God's presence and his love towards us and it helps us to embody that. That's great and his love towards us and it helps us to embody that. That's great. But the reality is forgiveness is going to be an ongoing effort for most of the people who wrong us and you know we're going to have to keep choosing and deciding to forgive whenever you're triggered and you know because, ultimately, the impact that you felt before, that you lamented earlier on in the process you're going to probably feel it again.
Mac:Yeah, dude, I'm so grateful you remind us that it's a process, because we're obviously presenting it as a choice, a decision. But the reality is hurt can linger after forgiveness, and you use the word trigger. So whenever you're triggered by that hurt, that's still lingering even though you've decided to forgive. Well, now you have that. Now it's another opportunity. You have to choose forgiveness or to jump back into the enemy cycle. Right, you can ruminate on that, or you can jump right back into ruminating and, before you know it, be in that cycle again, or you can choose to pivot. But again, forgiveness is a decision in those moments, not a deletion of your emotions. It was really important to name that. It's a process.
Mac:Just because you've forgiven once, it doesn't mean it's like a permanent attitude. You're going to have to keep choosing. And one of the things I've noticed in pastoring people whenever you preach on forgiveness, you have people coming up afterwards because it's a topic everybody can relate to and struggles with. One of the things I noticed is that many people have taken steps to forgive, but they still feel the pain of whatever wrong was done and because of that they assume they haven't been forgiven. And I realized pastorally that there is an important moment there to free them from a sense of guilt or shame that they haven't done what they think they should do, which is to forgive and go. No, you have forgiven. It's just that you're still experiencing the hurt of what happened to you, and now you're struggling in the realm of a process to maintain that permanent attitude which is totally normal and to be expected.
Josiah:Right, yeah, and I would name it. There's a spectrum along those lines. There's the fact that this person did wrong you and you still feel hurt by it. That would be like on one end of the spectrum, and then re-experiencing the hurt on the other end would be like someone who continues to wrong you, who is not interested in reconciling right. What does it look like to continue to forgive that person over and over and over? You know we have the, the, the way jesus explained it, like hey, like you know, we're not just going to forgive someone seven times or 70 times, 70 times seven. Yes, it paints this picture that forgiveness is often going to be an ongoing, daily surrender.
Mac:Yes, and I'm hoping we can do an episode about this in a little bit on what I'm calling kingdom Aikido, because it often doesn't involve just being a passive pushover either. So we're going to let's just bookmark that. I'd like to circle back to that and go. What happens when there is a repeat offender? What does it look like to love your enemy while not being victimized by them? So let's circle back to that question. But I love it, I think we're on it and this is a lot of fun.
Mac:I wanna maybe transition to the positive impact of forgiveness. Okay, so remember we've said this before that forgiveness is a solo, but reconciliation is a duet. So everything we've outlined so far, as, Katie, you said, you can do on your own with God. It doesn't require the other person at all, which is good news, because that means you can forgive someone who's. I know people who are trying to forgive someone who isn't alive anymore, right, so you can forgive people, but the goal of the gospel isn't just forgiveness, it's reconciliation, it's restored relationship, and we're gonna talk about that in our next episode. What does it look like to be open to that? And even if it's in a very boundary way? But for now, I wanna ask the question what is the impact of forgiveness? And let's start with the person doing the forgiveness? Let's say you've said I wanna forgive this person. What impact might that have on the person engaging the process of forgiveness?
Josiah:So one of the impacts this can have on a person forgiving is just with their mental and emotional state there's a peace and a freedom, like a catharsis. That often happens when you're willing to release someone in forgiveness. I'm reminded of the book it's called the Soul of Shame. It talks a lot about how, in many cases, depression and anxiety is often the byproduct of resentment and bitterness and hurt and pain that isn't being dealt with and ultimately, when we release others, it's like releasing a weight. There's a, it can, it's, it's like releasing a weight. I guess it would just name yeah, there's like the. There's this internal process that can happen and it's a. It should be a very big motivator for us to to walk the road of forgiveness.
Mac:Yeah, I mean refusing to forgive. Um, it hurts us mentally, right, and so when we forgive it, it sort of releases us from some of the negative impacts that a lack of forgiveness has, like depression and anxiety and so on. I think another one that I would name is the impact that it can have is it paves the way for deeper connections with other people. If you're going to have a meaningful relationship with another human being at some point, you're going to need to learn how to practice forgiveness. Human being, at some point you're going to need to learn how to practice forgiveness, because if you're meaningfully engaged with someone else, you're going to bump into each other, you're going to have crashes. You know what I mean. You're going to intentionally or unintentionally hurt and wound each other. That's just part.
Mac:When I do premarital counseling, I often tell people all right, tell me about a significant fight you've had. And I tell them because if you haven't had one, I'm not going to marry you because it means you're not being real with each other. You get what I'm saying. And so the moment you go, let's just normalize that two human beings who are imperfect are sort of going to bump into each other. Well, what do we do. When that happens, we've got to have a category for forgiveness and when we do, that immediately equips us to move past hurts and wrongdoings in a way that restores intimacy and connection in relationship.
Katie:Yeah, that's true, that's so true. And yeah, and doing this work can help you move towards that place of trust. I love that. Another one I would name would be physiologically. There is so much evidence out there on how bad it is for your body to hold on to bitterness and resentment, right Like there's more and more research coming out. More and more doctors now, I'm hearing, are actually taking the opportunity to dive into some of this type of stuff with patients who have, like, chronic illness or inflammation.
Katie:Staying in a place of bitterness and resentment will keep your body in a chronic state of stress. It can lead to high blood pressure, heart disease, weakened immune system, poor sleep, it'll age you faster. I mean autoimmune stuff, like you name it. There's just there's. There's so much bad work that can happen in your body when we hold on to bitterness and resentment or anger, and so doing the work of forgiveness can actually have really significant physiological impacts, and I think we're just honestly, I think we're probably just um scratching the surface of that. My guess would be that, you know, as time goes on and all this research continues, we're going to be even have more awareness of how important that is.
Mac:I wonder if cold plunging would help. Just a cold plunge pitch here. I do think it resets something. Why are you looking at me like that?
Josiah:Cold plunging as a replacement for forgiveness?
Mac:no, not as a replacement as a key aid in resetting your body as you forgive because if the wrongdoing that you've experienced has created trauma, your body stores that trauma, your body keeps the score, and that happens in your central nervous system. It's dumping cortisol into your system and, uh well, cold plunging is one of those things that activates your parasympathetic nervous system and sort of slows down the central nervous system from being in overdrive.
Katie:So can you get the same effect by sitting in a sauna? No that's what I want to know.
Josiah:Yeah, you can go back and forth, how?
Mac:about a long hot shower Get the same thing. That's good, I totally agree with you, and all of the research is shedding more and more light on this area.
Mac:And then the final one. I'll just say the impact on the person. Forgiving is just like an alignment, like spiritually you're now aligned with God and what God has already done Through Jesus. God has already forgiven our wrongs, including the wrongs that other people commit against us, and so in a sense you're sort of removing. When we refuse to forgive, we're sort of out of alignment with God, we're working against the gospel. But when we extend forgiveness, we're now aligning ourselves with the good news. And I don't know I mean I felt it before when you're stuck in that place of I don't really wanna forgive, I would name maybe this sounds weird, but just like God's heavy hand on you, like no, this isn't the place I want you to be. You know what I mean. And when you forgive, there's like something clicks into place where you're like, oh, I'm now, my heart and my actions are aligned with God's heart and actions yeah.
Josiah:It's like you're back on track. Yes, yeah, yeah, I would. I mean we have said it before, but there's, I think it's just one of the primary ways we get to participate in God's restorative work in the world is through forgiveness and and I don't you know I remember the, the story that we shared a few weeks ago from Corrie Ten Boom, where she had to forgive.
Josiah:She had the chance to forgive one of the guards that was overseeing her at the concentration camp, and the experience she had in finally being able to do it and how much she sensed God's love was not only for her but flowing out into the other person. I think it's just really powerful. And that leads us to the fact that this positive impact is not only something we get to experience when we forgive, but I would imagine that there are a lot of impacts that this could have on the other person that we're forgiving. So I wonder you know we can take a second to flesh that out what are some of the positive impacts that us forgiving others has on them?
Mac:I like that you're bringing that up, because I've heard pastors and preachers say things like well, forgiveness is for you. It's like, well, yeah, it is, but let's not pretend like it's just for me, as if, like, we can just orient to this selfishly. It's also designed to have an impact on the people in the community around us. Yeah, and.
Katie:I can attest to that. I would think we all could Like think of a time that we have been forgiven, like when I've been on the receiving end of forgiveness.
Katie:It feels like freedom, like it feels like someone sort of releasing you and you end up in the receiving end of grace, like it's like God's grace. It can release you from guilt, shame, regret, like all those emotions that can come with doing harm to someone. It can prompt personal growth when you're on the receiving end of forgiveness. I think it can be like a light bulb moment to go hmm, okay, like, what would it look like for me to embody that posture of forgiveness towards other people in my life, et cetera. It can restore relationship and trust. I mean, I think there's such an like an overflow, a domino effect that can happen when we forgive someone else. If anything, it makes them more likely to be able to extend grace towards others.
Mac:Yeah, I think you're right that when you have gotten present to the impact that your actions have had on someone else so you felt the sting of it and they extend forgiveness to you, you receive grace. It can be a powerful motivator to become the kind of person that does that as well, and I would also say that that's when you're on the receiving end of forgiveness. But sometimes just viewing, watching a courageous person do the work of forgiveness can inspire those around them. That's why these feature stories, I think, are so cool, because you know, listening to Ruby Bridges or Corrie Ten Boom or whatever they're inspiring, their stories have inspired other people to do the courageous work of forgiveness in their own individual lives, of which we may know nothing about. So when you do the work of forgiving someone else, you may not know who you're inspiring and who then they're inspiring, and so on. It creates a different ripple in the world.
Josiah:Yeah yeah, and it's the right kind of witness to have in the world too. Yeah yeah.
Mac:All right, guys, it is Praxis time.
Katie:Praxis podcast.
Mac:So let's get into some practices. I'm like, okay, you've listened to this conversation, now what could I practically do when choosing forgiveness?
Josiah:Yeah, first practice I would name is to write out a letter, to write it down. You choose to forgive someone, you're going to write down your intention to forgive them. And I say a letter because I think that journaling within that whole context and getting all of your thoughts and feelings on the paper can be a cathartic type of experience on its own, but also allows you to view it again and then kind of sit with Jesus with it. And that's not to say that you have to give it to the other person that you're forgiving, but often writing it down, like we said before, getting it all on paper, sitting with Jesus.
Mac:Super important. So you're saying something different than journaling about it. You're saying you're writing a letter to the person who has wronged you, declaring forgiveness to them. Yes, and you're saying and in light of that, it may be that you send it, but that's not required. In fact, in most cases you probably won't. It's more for you.
Josiah:Yeah, yeah. It's like giving you the closure of being able to say it yeah, even if you'll never get to face them face to face.
Mac:Yeah. Second practice would just be to do one of those exercises on releasing the wrongdoing. Again, that is a major step. It's a hang-up moment that many people struggle with. So if you have a solo stove or a fireplace in your house, you could try doing that Again. It's not a hey, this person is going to burn in hell. It's a right. The heartbeat is the consuming. The piece of paper is canceling the debt. That's the association.
Katie:You're not sitting there with voodoo dolls. Right, right, right.
Mac:That would be the exact opposite of what this entire series is about. The breath prayer I mentioned is you just hold that person in mind with the idea of Father forgive them. The river release or imagining heaven are all good exercises for releasing the wrongdoing.
Katie:Mm-hmm, yeah. And then, lastly, I would say you can actually develop a plan to help you embody forgiveness, and we touched on this throughout the episode. We've already put other ideas out there, but some ideas could be as simple as like moving towards the person physically, like next time you're in a space with them, rather than avoiding them or giving them the cold shoulder, move towards them. You could pick up your phone and text them something like hey, I'm thinking of you, I hope you're well. You can choose eye contact and a smile versus avoidance. You can choose to speak well of that person in front of others or offer help when they need it. There are all sorts of ways that you can just take a small step to embody forgiveness and sometimes, when we notice our emotions aren't there, I think sometimes taking those embodied steps can actually help our emotions catch up.
Mac:Well, our Coleman lantern still exists and is still usable. I didn't let Josie carry it or touch it on our trip, so maybe in the future.
Katie:It takes a while to restore a dress.
Mac:It does it does, which is actually what we're gonna get into in our next episode. So thanks for joining us today. Forgiveness is a solo. It's something you can do by yourself, but reconciliation is a duet. It requires the other person, and so next time we're going to talk about how to be open to reconciliation without demanding it from the other person or, you know, compromising healthy boundaries. So it's it's. It's a little bit of a complicated topic, but we're going to give it a go and we hope you guys will tune in and listen.
Josiah:Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.
